A Question and a thought about DI and silent stage

[jamongrande]

First a question: based off of some recent road experiences with extremely different sound systems and production crew, at what "point" do you cede control over your sound to the FOH crew, both in terms of timbre/tone and hardwire connections?

If you listen to the sound of FOH during soundcheck, do you make any global eq or patch adjustments to get it to where you want? Or do you ask the FOH to adjust the sound (again tone but not necessarily volume/mix)? Or do you just let Jesus take the wheel because you can hear what you want on stage?

Re: hardwire connections, do you ask that they plug directly at your outputs, or let them drop DI boxes in your line? I recently had a sound guy who did not like that I fed him all of my signals from my own subsnake to his input box. Tangentially, I know some sound guys who will refuse to let vocalists use anything but supplied mics/stands and such.

Second a thought about silent stages: Silent stages really exacerbate the timbral differences between varying sound systems. I had a totally fine evening Thursday night in a smaller theater running a db system, and an absolutely horrible night the next through a Community rig. If I had any sort of stage volume eq'd to my preference, maybe it wouldn't have been as bad just because of a little stage bleed (especially if drums are the only thing really heard at the edge of stage). Additionally, what am I giving the FOH to base their notion of "my sound" when they aren't hearing anything. When I can I'll have a cab or two onstage at very low levels, but won't for money sake while traveling. Am I wrong?

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

First a question: based off of some recent road experiences with extremely different sound systems and production crew, at what "point" do you cede control over your sound to the FOH crew, both in terms of timbre/tone and hardwire connections?

If you listen to the sound of FOH during soundcheck, do you make any global eq or patch adjustments to get it to where you want? Or do you ask the FOH to adjust the sound (again tone but not necessarily volume/mix)? Or do you just let Jesus take the wheel because you can hear what you want on stage?

Re: hardwire connections, do you ask that they plug directly at your outputs, or let them drop DI boxes in your line? I recently had a sound guy who did not like that I fed him all of my signals from my own subsnake to his input box. Tangentially, I know some sound guys who will refuse to let vocalists use anything but supplied mics/stands and such.

Second a thought about silent stages: Silent stages really exacerbate the timbral differences between varying sound systems. I had a totally fine evening Thursday night in a smaller theater running a db system, and an absolutely horrible night the next through a Community rig. If I had any sort of stage volume eq'd to my preference, maybe it wouldn't have been as bad just because of a little stage bleed (especially if drums are the only thing really heard at the edge of stage). Additionally, what am I giving the FOH to base their notion of "my sound" when they aren't hearing anything. When I can I'll have a cab or two onstage at very low levels, but won't for money sake while traveling. Am I wrong?

First question: unless you are a big name: always. And even if you are, I'd still tread lightly. If you're going to change anything, I'd be diplomatic about it. I'd be kinda upset if I'm cranking high end because you are constantly reducing it. Our job is the same: to make the show sound good.

Question 2: the whole "my sound" thing really only matters to you and me. It is the production companies job to get the entire show sounding good, and if your sound is getting in the way of that because it is too XXXXXXX, guess what and who (should) wins?

IMO and take it for what its worth, the "when in Rome" approach is usually best. You will never get the pinnacle of monitoring or sound every single night and there will be rooms you just think sound bad. Getting through those shows and STILL putting on a great show and playing your best is really the goal. Express your concerns politely and diplomatically, and let what will be, be.

I'm sure the next answer will tell you to go to war.

 

[Brian Coonan]

I'd agree with Bruce on this one.

I've heard my 'sound' not sounding exactly like I thought it should but, I also am not out front and listening to it in the context of all the other instruments and room, etc so I try to let the FoH experts do what they do. I do know that when I show up to like festival gigs where there are multiple bands and stuff, I've not had a sound guy say he was unhappy with what I was feeding them from the Axe Fx, and the fact that I never touch my output to them once they are good is very much appreciated. I never go through a DI either. Even if they have one, I just give them my direct line from Output 1 - no issues with that so far.

I just try my best to work with whoever is there to make us sound good and that seems to work pretty well. If I do need something from them (usually the monitor guys/girls though), manners and politeness go a long way.

 

[Rumbletone]

My role is to produce my sound. If I’m unhappy with what FoH does with it … I suppose I need to find gigs with better production crew!

Specifically re the DI issue, I’ve discussed it with several FoH and monitor engineers and it really depends on the venue/setup, but potential advantages of going through DI include:

1. Reducing likelihood of bleed in snakes (specifically if they’re running low signal dynamic mics next to your modeller in the same snake - same reason they make keyboard players go through a DI).

2. An extra point of ground lift/isolation, and I’ve seen it work - for example, the ground lift on the Fractal does not eliminate the ground loop but the lift on the DI does.

3. Allows them to use a standard mic input (rather than having to patch your signal to a separate line input).

4. The signal from stage to FoH is balanced no matter what you plug into it.

5. Reduces the risk that musician can credibly allege that venue fried their gear with phantom power.

6. Additional DI features available like polarity flip and ‘thru’ tap (which may be redundant for Fractal gear, but are readily available physically at the DI).

7. If the XLR gets yanked, less likely that your rig will get pulled off/across the stage (as opposed to the 1/4inch pulling out if you’re plugged into a DI), which reduces potential liability for the venue.

I should note that I’ve never felt my tone was compromised by a pro, well-functioning DI.

 

[Chromatizm]

Reduces the risk that musician can credibly allege that venue fried their gear with phantom power.

What are the chances of Fractal gear to be damaged by phantom power? Should I be worried when plugging in and double check with foh before inserting XLR?

 

[jamongrande]

No, fractal devices aren’t damaged by phantom.

 

[Rumbletone]

What are the chances of Fractal gear to be damaged by phantom power? Should I be worried when plugging in and double check with foh before inserting XLR?

Probably very low (based on the wiki and posts here). But I’ve seen several circumstances where it was alleged that the house damaged a performer’s gear when it was ‘unlikely, but possible’, and some sound engineers like to reduce the risk of such an assertion.

 

[Rick]

We solved the issue by having our own rig, which becomes our IEM or wedge rig when we don’t need/run FOH. Splitter snake give them all the feeds to do their job with, and we hear the same thing (on IEMs) or close to the same thing (on wedges) show to show. Silent stages are built-in with that setup, when needed. Ours is a smaller act, but the concept scales easily. We can add stage speakers for instruments if we are allowed, or it’s beneficial. I find we are setting up less gear as time goes by.

There’s no point in fighting the FOH engineer, he can make that miserable for you. Be professional, and most are equally willing to go with you a ways. When you get the occasional asshat, you just have to roll through it and do your best show.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

We solved the issue by having our own rig, which becomes our IEM or wedge rig when we don’t need/run FOH. Splitter snake give them all the feeds to do their job with, and we hear the same thing (on IEMs) or close to the same thing (on wedges) show to show. Silent stages are built-in with that setup, when needed. Ours is a smaller act, but the concept scales easily. We can add stage speakers for instruments if we are allowed, or it’s beneficial. I find we are setting up less gear as time goes by.

There’s no point in fighting the FOH engineer, he can make that miserable for you. Be professional, and most are equally willing to go with you a ways. When you get the occasional asshat, you just have to roll through it and do your best show.

Curious how you achieve using your main rig as an IEM/split rig when you play a venue with house sound. I have in my rack my Behringer X32 mixer, and wired into it is a wireless mic and 3 sets of IEMs. I also run tracks left and click right into 2 mono inputs. I’ve been thinking how to make this happen painlessly with house sound, but haven’t been able to wrap my head around it.

 

[boyce89976]

Make it sound good for you and your band mates. Even a bad FOH guy will be able to work with it from there.

 

[Rick]

Curious how you achieve using your main rig as an IEM/split rig when you play a venue with house sound. I have in my rack my Behringer X32 mixer, and wired into it is a wireless mic and 3 sets of IEMs. I also run tracks left and click right into 2 mono inputs. I’ve been thinking how to make this happen painlessly with house sound, but haven’t been able to wrap my head around it.

I use a similar mixer, the Presonus 32R. It’s got 32 physical inputs and 16 Aux outputs. We have that set up as both our main and monitor board. Presonus apps (UC Surface and Q-Mix) allow control as needed for FOH or monitors, or both. When the house has its own PA and engineer, we have a splitter that basically gives us and them a set of inputs to work with. In that situation, on our end we just use the monitor side as usual, and don’t connect anything to the main outs. The splitter snake is just splitting the incoming signals so the we both get all the needed feeds that makes it work.

Incidentally, we only have 2 inputs using phantom power (ambience mics onstage for our IEM mix). FOH doesn’t get those in either scenario, so there’s no fear of sending them a phantom powered signal. If you use phantom powered mics that FOH does get, you need a splitter that isolates that. Easy to get, but more expensive than a passive splitter snake.

Hope that helps!

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

I use a similar mixer, the Presonus 32R. It’s got 32 physical inputs and 16 Aux outputs. We have that set up as both our main and monitor board. Presonus apps (UC Surface and Q-Mix) allow control as needed for FOH or monitors, or both. When the house has its own PA and engineer, we have a splitter that basically gives us and them a set of inputs to work with. In that situation, on our end we just use the monitor side as usual, and don’t connect anything to the main outs. The splitter snake is just splitting the incoming signals so the we both get all the needed feeds that makes it work.

Incidentally, we only have 2 inputs using phantom power (ambience mics onstage for our IEM mix). FOH doesn’t get those in either scenario, so there’s no fear of sending them a phantom powered signal. If you use phantom powered mics that FOH does get, you need a splitter that isolates that. Easy to get, but more expensive than a passive splitter snake.

Hope that helps!

Is this basically the snake? https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.co...mTJLUt14N148x9o2v3ozjwhhsNfaPqscaAu-uEALw_wcB

 

[jamongrande]

OP here, thanks for the thoughts.

One band I'm in used to use the splitter you linked to, @Bruce Sokolovic, though it was a 32 channel version. We've recently moved to a BTPA splitter that was slightly nicer with right angle plugs on the IEM mixer leg (Presonus 32R as well), and a detachable, multipin fantail end that FOH gets signal from. So far no issues with ground loops or the like; you have to move to nicer splitters for ground lifts or transformer isolation. We make sure that only FOH supplies any phantom power needed (usually drum mics, the occasional active direct box). Soundcheck goes way faster as all of our mixes are already roughed in from previous gigs, and levels only really vary based on drum mics and vocal mics supplied.

That last part is somewhat the reason why asked where in the hardware chain you let FOH take control. I can literally setup our IEM rack, and run all of my signals to our rack as quickly or more quickly than having to explain it to FOH (and that's even supplying them with stage diagrams, input lists, and labelling on everything). If I'm giving them their split with lines already run, I don't know why it's vital that only they get to run cables from my fractal to my splitter. They can mic the drums and we can be on our way. But some soundguys get very confused and unhappy if I ask to do my own work.

As far as the silent stage thing, I almost never give directions to FOH except for song by song breakdowns of what instruments are featured, who solos, or if a particular vocal part needs to sit on top of the mix. That said, most of my sounds are lower gain tones utilizing 1x12 or 2x12 IRs; I'm listening for good quality and character in the 500hz-2khz range rather than huge lows or grindy highs. But occasionally someone will eq out a lot of my upper mids (I get it, to make room for vocals) to the point where it sounds like a cheap 4x12. Again, I never ride FOH about our sound, but I also know when they've built a mix that just isn't complimenting our band. But they don't know what I want the guitar in particular to sound like cause it's just in my ears. If I was playing through a Vox or Fender or Marshall on stage, they would hear the point of reference and dial it in accordingly.

Lastly, I totally get that professionalism and calm communication is always first and foremost, and I will be the first to make sure FOH has all it needs. I'm not playing large enough shows on the regular to have our own dedicated FOH guy, but the variation in guitar tone and overall mix that I hear from audience recordings across different venues is something that I want to be able to address.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Volume on stage is a pendulum swinging back and forth IMO, and right now it’s at the far quiet side of the arc.

Electric guitar is different than other instruments, it NEEDS to interact with the sound from the speaker to sound right. Even if we’re not using Hendrix or Santana-like feedback on stage, it still makes a difference in the quality of the amplified sound. See Cliff’s https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/ tech note for the why-for.

There needs to be a swing back to the center. Some volume on stage is OK but it shouldn’t be excessive.

I like this discussion… if we act responsibly on stage then maybe we can get things into that middle ground again.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

OP here, thanks for the thoughts.



Lastly, I totally get that professionalism and calm communication is always first and foremost, and I will be the first to make sure FOH has all it needs. I'm not playing large enough shows on the regular to have our own dedicated FOH guy, but the variation in guitar tone and overall mix that I hear from audience recordings across different venues is something that I want to be able to address.

Hard stop. Audience recordings are probably the very last point of reference you should put any stock in. You can have 5 iPhones in different seats, or in different corners of the venue and get wildly different sounding recordings. There are just way too many uncontrollable variables in an audience recording to be able to assess what things are really sounding like. Even too much volume for the room will destroy any semblance of a good recording on a typical phone mic. How are the board mixes sounding? Have you gotten back any of those? I’m quite pleased with ours, even though audience recordings can be hit or miss. Sometimes I can hear very little guitar, other times a lot of guitar depending where they are in the room.

Being I’m doing my own sound, I’ve learned to make the guitars just a little too loud if you’re standing in line with the speaker. This way when you’re off axis which a majority of the room is, the guitars are still present. Before I did this they’d disappear in the middle of the room. Some people use a small center powered speaker to push things like this, but from what I’ve read phase problems can be a killer doing this, too.

Really the BEST point of reference is this: how does your audience tell you things sound? First, the regular people. Most of them dont know the difference between good tone and a potato. How about your buddies who play guitar? My friends know to be brutally honest with me on this stuff. These to me are the opinions I put the most stock in. They’re being hyper critical and if it passes muster with them, I know I’m golden.

Besides, as long as you get re booked, how bad can it be?

 

[jamongrande]

Re: audience recordings, I didn't mean iphone recordings, my bad. I meant a dedicated zoom recorder setup near the FOH mixing position (which gives a good sense of the mix), and when available multitrack stems off the board (good for hearing how individual instruments were EQ'd, but no sense of how they were actually mixed). For some reason, I tend to dislike direct stereo mixes off the board, as usually the vocals are just a bit more loud than I want to hear in mix, but may totally work for intelligibility in a loud environment. I totally get room position. I try to get a little time walking around a room listening to where the peaks and valleys are (rooms with non-centered subwoofer clusters are always all over the place in the low end), but that more out of my own curiosity rather than any attempt to tell them what to do.

Your second paragraph gets straight to my issue though with silent stages. If I'm not providing any extra reinforcement on stage, there's way more variability in the room. Right up to the stage and all you hear is sub frequencies, drums, and horns. You back 10 feet away from the stage and now the vocals and some instruments come into focus. Only those crazy enough to stand right in front of a PA stack or halfway back in the room get something closer to what we are shooting for... maybe.

My point of reference are the sound guys in the rooms I know somewhat well, and the production crew I work with in some event bands. I'll ask if anything caused them issues balance wise, particularly if I've been tweaking my patches in particular direction (right now I'm going slightly brighter because of recent zoom recordings I've heard). The only regular criticism I hear goes back to the silent stage thing and lack of volume.

 

[touch33]

I had a totally fine evening Thursday night in a smaller theater running a db system, and an absolutely horrible night the next through a Community rig.

No doubt. Community is to dB as AmpRig is to Fractal…

 

[Keybi]

What are the chances of Fractal gear to be damaged by phantom power? Should I be worried when plugging in and double check with foh before inserting XLR?

There are many discussions about this on the web. However, I always make sure that Phantom Power is switched off for safety reasons. This is now routine.
After all, there could be a technical fault with the mixing console. And I have simply experienced too many technical faults caused by phantom power.

Please do not use OUT 2 of the FM3 with a 'jack to XLR adapter' into the stage box. Please also use DI boxes here.
With such an adapter, PIN 1 and PIN3 are short-circuited and used as ground. This can cause a current of 7mA to flow.
It can also lead to hum.

And even Yamaha points this out in many of their manuals, even with the LINE 6 devices (see picture)

So when I play live and I don't know the technician and the PA system, I always have DI boxes with me. For XLR OUT and jack OUT.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Re: audience recordings, I didn't mean iphone recordings, my bad. I meant a dedicated zoom recorder setup near the FOH mixing position (which gives a good sense of the mix), and when available multitrack stems off the board (good for hearing how individual instruments were EQ'd, but no sense of how they were actually mixed). For some reason, I tend to dislike direct stereo mixes off the board, as usually the vocals are just a bit more loud than I want to hear in mix, but may totally work for intelligibility in a loud environment. I totally get room position. I try to get a little time walking around a room listening to where the peaks and valleys are (rooms with non-centered subwoofer clusters are always all over the place in the low end), but that more out of my own curiosity rather than any attempt to tell them what to do.

Your second paragraph gets straight to my issue though with silent stages. If I'm not providing any extra reinforcement on stage, there's way more variability in the room. Right up to the stage and all you hear is sub frequencies, drums, and horns. You back 10 feet away from the stage and now the vocals and some instruments come into focus. Only those crazy enough to stand right in front of a PA stack or halfway back in the room get something closer to what we are shooting for... maybe.

My point of reference are the sound guys in the rooms I know somewhat well, and the production crew I work with in some event bands. I'll ask if anything caused them issues balance wise, particularly if I've been tweaking my patches in particular direction (right now I'm going slightly brighter because of recent zoom recordings I've heard). The only regular criticism I hear goes back to the silent stage thing and lack of volume.

Proper speaker placement and field of listening can get really heady and mathematical beyond my understanding and probably the scope of this thread, other than that is what causes these issues. You HAVE to be within the intended targeted field of listening and the speakers must be placed and angled perfectly for maximum coverage and uniformity of sound. Considering I play mostly bars, this would only happen by luck. I’m not measuring the dance floor, testing audio sine wave reflections or anything like that. I’m throwing some speakers on subs, getting a quick check and running with it. I can hear either way too much sub, or walk away from the subs and hear very little sub. I actually keep my subs on their own output and route to them so I can control their level separately.

I think line array speakers aim to solve some of these problems, but I already run around with enough stuff. If a venue has a good array system set up, you should get much more uniformity. Volume can either be your friend or your enemy IMO. With volume you can get the sound more glued and even but there is a point of that happening it is just too loud and loses clarity. I’d much rather be a little too low than too loud. With my RCF stuff, we are CRYSTAL CLEAR with great separation, but still suffer from what you describe; wide variety within the room.

To make this very long story short, there are answers but they aren’t cheap and are well outside the bounds of a performing guitar player. We write the best sounds we can and after that, it is someone else’s job to get that in the mix of the band. Ultimately, you can have a great room, great system and great sound, but if you have a Great Ape moving faders, you’re just going to end up effed anyway………

 

[Rick]

Is this basically the snake? https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.co...mTJLUt14N148x9o2v3ozjwhhsNfaPqscaAu-uEALw_wcB

That’s pretty much it, really. You need inputs to feed your rack, they need the same “pre-everything” inputs for theirs. Lots of shows with a monitor engineer do a similar thing and I stole the idea there. I’m not big time, and don’t do big shows so I can’t attest to what the top shelf shows use, but this works for us regional guys. We just didn’t want to cede our monitor mix along with the FOH when the latter wasn’t under our control. My goal and driving concept, as far as the OP is concerned, was “control what you can, let go of what you can’t.” It’s rare in my area to need it, but this works.

I have a small rack to run our normal stuff (10 space ATA style), so I keep the splitter in a separate 4 spacer that I used to keep an Axe Fx in, which gives storage room for the snake cables. This way it can be in the trailer, but only unloaded if needed. I’m happy with it as a solution to my dilemma.