The importance of Mono for live guitar playing

touch33 said:
A FOH SoundGuy Perspective —

Send me all the channels you like, but I strongly suggest you test listen to your stereo presets in mono — because that’s what the audience will hear for 90% of the show.

Here’s the deal: I’m doing everything I can to get every source separated from the many many sounds coming off the stage so that each source is distinctly “available” to be heard in the overall mix, and most of the time I’m taking your multiple channels and comping them down to an additional single mono signal — and THAT’S the fader I’m using in the mix most of the time, except for those occasions when you’re soloing front and center (which is when I dial up your additional channels to gloriously occupy more space in the mix). Without the ability to create that overall space in the mix you lose most of the punch and clarity that makes live music so exciting.

Do keep in mind that I do this every time, regardless if the FOH system is mono or “stereo” (a somewhat nebulous concept in most live applications) unless, of course, you’re soloing and you want the ambience of a huge/immersive sound.

So there. 👍
Click to expand...
Wow, a sound guy that pays attention and reacts to solos! Nice!

Thanks for your input. Personally, while I use the word "stereo", all I'm really after is the 2-amp blend. I try them out with various pan settings, but haven't found I need change anything due to pan placement; it all seems to work. Having Leslie and delay effects spread out in the mix is great, but a luxury. I run stereo to my IEMs and mix that with the mono monitor send from the house, so I'm always spoiled.

The vast majority of techs I've worked with have panned the 2 channels. I sometimes hear it open up as they bring up FOH in sound check. Whether they dor or not, I get many comments from them that Fractal sounds fantastic, and they're happy to have control of the mix without stage volume hassles.

Of course, all the audience cares about is that we play great, smile, and have a good time on stage, so they're caught up in that same energy. No one give a crap about our precious tones but us. ;)
 
So I just want to understand so I can sound best possible and consistent live sound, but should I just stick with giving FOH Left and Right and configure my output for stereo? I don't use very many stereo type effects if at all. I typically run into my PA at my rehearsal space in stereo so I haven't really put too much thought into this until recently but looking to experiment.
 
mlancaster1 said:
So I just want to understand so I can sound best possible and consistent live sound, but should I just stick with giving FOH Left and Right and configure my output for stereo? I don't use very many stereo type effects if at all. I typically run into my PA at my rehearsal space in stereo so I haven't really put too much thought into this until recently but looking to experiment.
Click to expand...
Ultimately, "it depends." Do some experiments too. Check out "Mono vs. Stereo" on p. 6 of the owner's manual.
 
mlancaster1 said:
… but should I just stick with giving FOH Left and Right and configure my output for stereo?
Click to expand...
Send whatever you wish — all us FOH ask is that you at least do a “mono check” of your presets to ensure they don’t end up sounding like ass when they (invariably) get mono’d somewhere along the line. That way we’re ALL covered — and you get to sound great ALL the time!
 
Last edited:
I've gone back and forth on this quite a few times. Ultimately, I've landed on Mono guitar (e.g., amp/cab) with some stereo effects (e.g., delay). But I use them sparingly. Previously, I would use different IR's and blend them in Stereo. If I didn't hard pan them, I would get pretty close. While it does add a sense of width and dimension to your playing, it also separates the imaging quite a bit which is not ideal for many styles of music. Unless you're specifically going for an 80's style, I would advise against it. However, I have seen some GOT presets that slightly (maybe 15% or so) pan two cabs left and right which sounds quite nice. Like most things with effects, a little bit goes a long way.

I also remember reading somewhere that a FOH guy told a quite famous guitar player that he shouldn't be using two (or four) different IR's and pan them, as the acoustics of a space combined with the difference in IR will dictate certain sounds arriving earlier than others. But I'm not sure if I'm recalling this accurately. So in a recording context we'd get the stereo width and imaging from doing record multiple tracks with different IR's or amps and hard panning each take left and right. But live, it's advisable for the audiences sake to just keep it simple regarding your primary tone. Effects may be different.

While stereo may sound good to you in your IEM's, the audience likely won't hear it the same way as you do. True stereo width from a guitar usually comes from two different performances hard panned left and right, at least from a rhythm perspective. I mean that's generally what we're accustomed to when listening to records. In the case of performing live, it is the same performance hard panned left and right unless you have two guitar players which would create a true sense of width.

Personally I've stopped using the enhancer block and going crazy with the stereo effects. While it sounds amazing and and can be addictive to play, it usually doesn't track as well. However, it is also not a representation of the tones I really love. Except for stereo delay/reverb, that sounds amazing.

TL;DR

Mono Guitar - One or two amps, multiple IR's, completely dead center or slight panning left/right.

Stereo Delay/Reverb - A little goes a long way, even 3% reverb can be more than enough for a dirty rhythm track. Leads can be more wet.

Other effects - Use your ears but also your judgement (i.e., understanding the context of how your audience will hear your playing).
 
I read an interview Satriani did some years back and he said the best thing that ever happened to his live sound, was when he stopped trying to project a stereo image to his audience. Mono worked much better.

I believe if it's a small venue and people are stationary you could do stereo without issues, but that's not usually the case.

Agree completely with Matt, stereo for personal monitoring (good sound can be inspiring and make for a better performance) but for the audience mono (usually) works better.
 
allenma said:
Of course, all the audience cares about is that we play great, smile, and have a good time on stage, so they're caught up in that same energy. No one give a crap about our precious tones but us
Click to expand...
I’m compelled to push back a little here. Yes, performance, style and audience engagement are paramount (and it’s super-rare for someone to come up after the show and comment “that tweed/JMP combo you’re using is the shit!”) but I’d put forth that it ALL adds up and that FOH sonic quality absolutely matters — including your tone(s). I’d also posit that if your tone helps YOU perform better — for whatever reason — then it also makes a tangible difference to the whole.
 
chrisjnyc said:
Always mono... no one is going to hear anything in stereo.
Click to expand...
Sure they will — but only if FOH does it correctly (and at the right time).

FWIW, I just saw the U2 show at Sphere Vegas last week — Edge’s guitar was mono in the FOH “proscenium” mix, but when he solo’d all his FX spread out into the “immersion” and “rear ambience” systems. Glorious.
 
touch33 said:
I’m compelled to push back a little here. Yes, performance, style and audience engagement are paramount (and it’s super-rare for someone to come up after the show and comment “that tweed/JMP combo you’re using is the shit!”) but I’d put forth that it ALL adds up and that FOH sonic quality absolutely matters — including your tone(s). I’d also posit that if your tone helps YOU perform better — for whatever reason — then it also makes a tangible difference to the whole.
Click to expand...
My analogy from my experience as a sound man is the average listener hears the GPA. They can tell the difference between a 1.5 and a 3.0, but they can’t tell you if it is because you flunked Chemistry or aced your final in English.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
didnt read the whole thread but this confuses me. Why would anyone want to do this? IEMs are for monitoring, FOH is for the show. The show should be lush stereo effects. Monitoring is just so you can hear yourself. Seems like a waste of an output bus if you ask me.
Click to expand...
Monitoring is usually pretty utilitarian when it comes to hearing other people. My experience with church bands is we usually have drums, bass, acoustic, 1-2 electrics, 1-2 keys, 3-5 vocals, and a track. Usually people just put what they need of my guitar in their mix. It is rare to find someone else who want to bask in the glory of my tone. I just keep it simple and let them use the same mono mix that the house gets while I have my own stereo mix with room IRs.
 
giantslayer said:
Monitoring is usually pretty utilitarian when it comes to hearing other people. My experience with church bands is we usually have drums, bass, acoustic, 1-2 electrics, 1-2 keys, 3-5 vocals, and a track. Usually people just put what they need of my guitar in their mix. It is rare to find someone else who want to bask in the glory of my tone. I just keep it simple and let them use the same mono mix that the house gets while I have my own stereo mix with room IRs.
Click to expand...
My Church actually puts me in stereo in the mix and monitors - others can bask in the glory of my guitar's stereo effects in their monitors - or not!
 
MisterE said:
But doesn't Chorus or any other effects with modulating delays always cause phase issues?
That's why I use stereo.
I never heard a mono chorus that sounded good
Click to expand...
No (not necessarily issues), any chorus pedals that is going into the front-end amp is going in mono and there are plenty that sound good doing that. As far as mono compatibility. It is just a matter of if the stereo field collapses what happen to the signal does it cause the effect to cancel out, does it cause the guitar to sound radically different (detrimental to the desired effect); or is it just less full. It not the delay modulation that is the issue, it is the difference in the delay modulation between the left and right signal and how the interact when they collapse into mono.

It is nice to have stereo and with my setup I always get the full stereo effect in my IEMs, but if the FOH gets the L/R signal combined, or only the left or right signal is being sent out the mains, I still want it to sound good. Hense the statement, check for mono compatibility.

A mono source with a modulated delay can still sound good if the left and right signal are modulating at the same rate, and the delay time is the same. Will it be as wide, no. Many times, even if the phase is different from the left and right, it might be just fine (depending on the intensity of the phase difference and the amount of effects mix.

The point is I make my patches in stereo, I collapse the signal to mono, then listen to just left, then just right. Make any adjustments so that if I either have a collapsed mono signal, a left only signal, or a right only signal, or a different blend of left/right. It still sounds roughly as intended and has no side-effects that distract from the song.

I define issues in this context as having a distracting determinantal effect on the guitar signal IF the L/R signals sum, or only the L or R signal is heard. Most of the time that doesn't happen. I only play out a couple of places and they use Stereo or Left, Mid, Right. But the monitor mixes in one place send the guitars to the IEMs in mono due to lack of channels. That is why I split off my own signal. I love stereo but I don't want it sounding like crap for everyone else.

The best example I can give for the need to check for mono compatibility is take the 2290 effect and collapse it to mono. Bye-Bye delay. Unless you change the phase rev on the L/R channels. You can still have a nice mod delayed signal if they are in phase. Depending on the modulation time and intensity between the l and r signals, it could be problematic or just fine.

It was a really an issue when I was playing more regularly where we didn't have control over whether not we would have mono or stereo to the FOH. We used a Presonus live mixer to have our own personal IEM mixes, but no control over the house.
 
giantslayer said:
Monitoring is usually pretty utilitarian when it comes to hearing other people. My experience with church bands is we usually have drums, bass, acoustic, 1-2 electrics, 1-2 keys, 3-5 vocals, and a track. Usually people just put what they need of my guitar in their mix. It is rare to find someone else who want to bask in the glory of my tone. I just keep it simple and let them use the same mono mix that the house gets while I have my own stereo mix with room IRs.
Click to expand...
With the Behringer X32 I’m a little limited to 8 bus outputs, so I need all the instrumentation I can get. Having my guitar going to a stereo aux for one IEM channel just isn’t feasible. All our IEMs run in mono for this reason. Going stereo to FOH of course is easy. So, in my case study of ONE, this has been my experience.
 
javajunkie said:
No (not necessarily issues), any chorus pedals that is going into the front-end amp is going in mono and there are plenty that sound good doing that. As far as mono compatibility. It is just a matter of if the stereo field collapses what happen to the signal does it cause the effect to cancel out, does it cause the guitar to sound radically different (detrimental to the desired effect); or is it just less full. It not the delay modulation that is the issue, it is the difference in the delay modulation between the left and right signal and how the interact when they collapse into mono.

It is nice to have stereo and with my setup I always get the full stereo effect in my IEMs, but if the FOH gets the L/R signal combined, or only the left or right signal is being sent out the mains, I still want it to sound good. Hense the statement, check for mono compatibility.

A mono source with a modulated delay can still sound good if the left and right signal are modulating at the same rate, and the delay time is the same. Will it be as wide, no. Many times, even if the phase is different from the left and right, it might be just fine (depending on the intensity of the phase difference and the amount of effects mix.

The point is I make my patches in stereo, I collapse the signal to mono, then listen to just left, then just right. Make any adjustments so that if I either have a collapsed mono signal, a left only signal, or a right only signal, or a different blend of left/right. It still sounds roughly as intended and has no side-effects that distract from the song.

I define issues in this context as having a distracting determinantal effect on the guitar signal IF the L/R signals sum, or only the L or R signal is heard. Most of the time that doesn't happen. I only play out a couple of places and they use Stereo or Left, Mid, Right. But the monitor mixes in one place send the guitars to the IEMs in mono due to lack of channels. That is why I split off my own signal. I love stereo but I don't want it sounding like crap for everyone else.

The best example I can give for the need to check for mono compatibility is take the 2290 effect and collapse it to mono. Bye-Bye delay. Unless you change the phase rev on the L/R channels. You can still have a nice mod delayed signal if they are in phase. Depending on the modulation time and intensity between the l and r signals, it could be problematic or just fine.

It was a really an issue when I was playing more regularly where we didn't have control over whether not we would have mono or stereo to the FOH. We used a Presonus live mixer to have our own personal IEM mixes, but no control over the house.
Click to expand...
Funny you mention the 2290, I was tweaking a patch thru the IEMs and wondering even with the mix at 100 and everything else pegged, no delay. Moved knobs for a good 5 minutes before I figured out it needs to be in stereo.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
Funny you mention the 2290, I was tweaking a patch thru the IEMs and wondering even with the mix at 100 and everything else pegged, no delay. Moved knobs for a good 5 minutes before I figured out it needs to be in stereo.
Click to expand...
or set the phase reverse to none or both
 
I care 10X more about the band mix than if I'm in stereo or mono for gigs.
If I'm in stereo but the snare is too loud, or the vocals too soft, I spent time on the wrong thing.

If I know I can get it without spending extra time that could be on the band mix, I'll take it cause its fun - but I don't need it.
The dual detune I adore is more for me than 99% of the audience. For them, a mono chorus is likely close enough.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom