Legacy Vs. Dyna-Cabs

holgar said:
Hi millman,
thank you for posting a nice preset with a Legacy cab on channel C to compare. I am too on the search for a Dyna Cab with full mids and soft treble and took the Friedman GB. If you want to try four of my variations of a Greenback Cab in your preset with added Drives instead of Flanger and Phaser:
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I appreciate the updated example. Condenser mics don't resonate with me personally in most applications but that is beside the point. I think your changes here perfectly illustrate the larger point I was trying to make. The options available to us in DynaCabs allow a great deal of tonal variations. At a high level the position is a High Cut and the Distance is a Low Cut. If you want to tame the highs move the mic away from the Center Cap. If you want to tame the lows move the mic away from the speaker.

I think it is important to note the Friedman GB and Friedman V30 DynaCabs are both from the same cabinet loaded with 2 Greenbacks and 2 V30s. So, even if you select the Friedman GB you are getting a different sonic profile than the 1960TV. I think it is a great option. Particularly if you want more bass response and a different sonic profile from 4 Greenbacks!
 
I’m on the FM3 , Dyna-cabs 👍🏻Frieman green backs and Friedman v-30 condenser and dynamic mikes. Didn’t like at first . Even go to some presets I made awhile ago and wonder why they dont sound like I want them to, then I go to cab and ,oh not using dyna cabs .Definitely like the moving of mikes to get tone
 
guitarzen said:
A bit late to this thread, but I absolutely love the York IRs. For me, I've compared them to Dynacab, legacy, other vendors, and for my sound they sound great. Punchy, not harsh, full. For amateurs like me, having a professionally mixed IR blend of mics utilizing an experts ear helps me get there faster. I really only use a few of each speaker/cab combo type, plus a few from Leon and keep it simple.
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But what about YA Dyna Cabs🤔
 
So I made some measurements of our Neve vs. API preamps. The difference is virtually nil. For a condenser mic the difference IS nil which is unsurprising since a condenser has its own built-in preamp.

Here's the frequency response difference between a Neve 1073 and an API 312:

Neve_vs_API.png
If you ignore the difference at 20 Hz, which is inaudible and only about 1.5 dB, the difference is within a couple tenths of a dB across the spectrum. This is with an SM7B. The results were similar with an R121.

Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the mic preamp has very little influence on the IR. Now, that's not say mic preamps don't sound different. The nonlinear characteristics are definitely different and will manifest depending upon how hard the preamp is driven. However, IRs are inherently linear and don't capture these nonlinear characteristics and, as seen in the graph above, the resulting IRs are basically independent of the preamp used.

QED
 
which leads me to double down on the frequently unpopular opinion I've stated: I think the significant overall differences some are perceiving between DC cab/mic placements and similarly shot other branded IRs could well be coming from other sources (other than mic pre: ie SIC setting difference ...), which could probably be determined with some rigorous comparison (tho some aspects of comparisons are admittedly tricky without the same exact cab available to shoot by 2 IR makers). My bet is still that the often perceived overall difference is SIC related since SIC can have a significant impact and, with autoSIC on by default, it's easy to miss that SiC is flipping back and forth between 2 values in the amp block when toggling the cab block between legacy and DC.
 
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I did a blind test comparison a while back comparing Chandler TG-2, a high end Neve 1073 clone, and Behringer ADA8200, and with a mix of mastering grade converters, “prosumer” Apollo converters, and the Behringer ones. I wouldn’t say the preamps sound the same but I do think people overstate the differences.

Often the differences people hear are either down to impedance interactions with dynamic mics, transformers between gear interacting, or driving the preamps (which is kind of where they start imparting more tone, preamps sound pretty similar when used clean/as intended). Was quite surprised how similar the Behringer sounded to the Neve. Chandler had a slightly more distinct sound to me.

 
One thing that does make a noticeable difference is how much sm57’s vary. Some definitely sound better than others, and it’s often personal preference. I think quite often when there is a “sound” to different IR vendors, a large part is down to their particular 57’s tone (if they use the same one for all packs)
 
FractalAudio said:
Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the mic preamp has very little influence on the IR. Now, that's not say mic preamps don't sound different. The nonlinear characteristics are definitely different and will manifest depending upon how hard the preamp is driven. However, IRs are inherently linear and don't capture these nonlinear characteristics and, as seen in the graph above, the resulting IRs are basically independent of the preamp used.

QED
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Thank you, this I did not know and now its clear to me what you are saying.
 
MirrorProfiles said:
One thing that does make a noticeable difference is how much sm57’s vary. Some definitely sound better than others, and it’s often personal preference. I think quite often when there is a “sound” to different IR vendors, a large part is down to their particular 57’s tone (if they use the same one for all packs)
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I was just gonna respond to @sprint, I reckon a lot of the differences are in the speakers themselves. "The Other John Browne" did a V30 shootout with a whole bunch of V30 speakers across different decades, and the differences were massive.... even within the same production batches, as far as I can remember.

So if Fractal have a V30 that Joe Bloggs doesn't like the sound of... then a DynaCab of that speaker just isn't going to float his boat, no matter what the mic or preamp is, ultimately.

So for me.... I'm just mostly interested in IR's of my own cabs, because I know them and I know the sounds I like from them. My cab isn't anything special either. It is just an Egnater Tourmaster 4x12 with Chinese V30's. Cost me £299 in 2013, and I've loved it ever since I got it. I bought it sight unseen too, could've been a huge mistake!

I do use DynaCabs. They're not just not my preferred choice at this point in time.
 
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Orvillain said:
I was just gonna respond to @sprint, I reckon a lot of the differences are in the speakers themselves. "The Other John Browne" did a V3 shootout with a whole bunch of V30 speakers across different decades, and the differences were massive.... even within the same production batches, as far as I can remember.
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Oh absolutely, the speakers are a huge variable too. But if you use the same 57 across loads of different speakers, your ear eventually learns the sonic profile of that particular 57, even when everything else varies.

Orvillain said:
So if Fractal have a V30 that Joe Bloggs doesn't like the sound of... the a DynaCab of that speaker just isn't going to float his boat, no matter what the mic or preamp is, ultimately.
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I think some mics can flatter certain speakers more than others. Our brains try to think of things as absolute “this is the best sounding mic, this is the best sounding speaker”, when in practice the best mic and speaker combination TOTALLY depends on the context it’s being used in. Sometimes there’ll be a speaker or mic that I just don’t seem to like no matter what, but usually they’re all just slightly different flavours and you find combinations that marry up nicely
 
MirrorProfiles said:
I did a blind test comparison a while back comparing Chandler TG-2, a high end Neve 1073 clone, and Behringer ADA8200, and with a mix of mastering grade converters, “prosumer” Apollo converters, and the Behringer ones. I wouldn’t say the preamps sound the same but I do think people overstate the differences.

Often the differences people hear are either down to impedance interactions with dynamic mics, transformers between gear interacting, or driving the preamps (which is kind of where they start imparting more tone, preamps sound pretty similar when used clean/as intended). Was quite surprised how similar the Behringer sounded to the Neve. Chandler had a slightly more distinct sound to me.

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I love the Chandler, hope to get 3 more for our studio in the future. I have to say that in our studio environment the differences between preamps is evident, but not drastic. Interestedly more pronounced in drum mics and guitar cabinets and some women vocals.

Our preamps:

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nicolasrivera said:
I love the Chandler, hope to get 3 more for our studio in the future. I have to say that in our studio environment the differences between preamps is evident, but not drastic. Interestedly more pronounced in drum mics and guitar cabinets and some women vocals.
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Chandler is my favourite on basically everything, just gets better and better as you increase the gain.

I’m strangely not a big fan of API preamps, but I always pick them in blind tests on guitars so I should probably grab a pair at some point just for that. I almost find them too fast, at least without recording to tape. Focusrite ISA are excellent too and very underrated. Probably the best value preamp you can get IMO
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Chandler is my favourite on basically everything, just gets better and better as you increase the gain.

I’m strangely not a big fan of API preamps, but I always pick them in blind tests on guitars so I should probably grab a pair at some point just for that. I almost find them too fast, at least without recording to tape. Focusrite ISA are excellent too and very underrated. Probably the best value preamp you can get IMO
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We have been tempted to ditch out the SSL in favor of an API console.....
 
0.2dB is noticeable, but subtle.

I suspect some of the differences could be the mic position. After playing with the 1960TV in Cab Lab 4, I’m pretty sure the stock dynacab position moves towards the edge of the cabinet, away from the other speakers. This results in a tone with greater clarity, whereas positioning the mic closer to another speaker results in a thicker, beefier tone.
 
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