Analog Drive Pedals in front of Axe III to get better FEEL, who else is doing this?

[km 202257]

I've always put a treble booster just after the guitar, and I still do this with AXE-FX III when I need TB. Might be better to have analog pedals before AXE-FX if it interacts with the pickups.

 

[Budda]

Put me in the no dirt pedals camp. Theres cool ones out there but ive found my gnarly sounds and cant be bothered.

 

[Mark Al]

I used Axe III for two years without any analog pedals (this is with headphone), I thought I didn't miss anything, as far as headphone playing is concerned, I thought it can't get better. I was so wrong

 

[Mark Al]

I don't miss pedals at all. I think something(s) a lot of people don't consider is that the models are 1v1 to their real world counterparts so it takes some tweaking, and that we typically run the amps in the Fractal much hotter than we would real world because there are no volume limitations. Guys will dial up a fender no master and the volume on 7 and not be happy with the results, when real world you'd be deaf.

Not saying that's the OP's experience, or @boyce89976 , but something I've seen time and time again

1v1 modeling, sure, tone-wise, they get really close, but on the other hand, FEEL is hard to describe and the difference there is often more than subtle for my fingers.

 

[Mark Al]

Do you think you could identify in a blind test if you couldnt hear the sound? Im curious what you are "feeling". I dont follow at all. Where are you located? Id love to setup a test. Honestly.

Play the setup without hearing the sound.... not sure how that'd work, or what we are testing then....

For folks who don't understand the feel aspect, please alternate between a nice tube combo amp and your Axe III set up, e.g. using either studio monitor, or poweramp + same guitar cab. Play them both on daily basis for a week or two, I'd be really surprised you can't tell the vast difference on how each set up feels. (Note this is NOT about tonal difference).

 

[Tonedeaf]

My Steel String Clean Drive with the Gain turn way down is my always on no matter what I'm using pedal. It adds just a ittsy bittsy more sweetness to me.

 

[D.B. Walker]

I am into the tone and feel of pedals. At gigs its not really noticeable, but I still have one or two pedals there as well. Like in the before time, when I used to gig … with people … in bars… whoa.

There are some Fuzz pedals that Axe cant really get to (Or at least I dont know how) BUT … I would add this…

There is a psychological thing at work here as well … when you plug in that pedal that your hero plays, and you work to get that sound … or it just inspires. This is a strong pull for me … sometimes the tone is in your head as much as in the speakers.

 

[giantslayer]

I dont see how plugging anything into a guitar can change how it feels, in the literal definition. And in terms of responsiveness, the axefx has latency, and putting another piece of gear in front wont change that. So Im not understanding both the "problem" or the "solution" here.

I define feel as the interaction between what you play and what you hear. Feel can only be experienced by the person who is playing in the moment, and it’s this thing that the person’s brain automatically computes as they are playing.

Latency definitely affects the feel, as does a bajillion other things, like compression, sag, how the sound changes based on adjusting technique, etc.

 

[Mark Al]

I define feel as the interaction between what you play and what you hear. Feel can only be experienced by the person who is playing in the moment, and it’s this thing that the person’s brain automatically computes as they are playing.

Latency definitely affects the feel, as does a bajillion other things, like compression, sag, how the sound changes based on adjusting technique, etc.

Guitar recording tone has been nailed at least a decade ago....

On the other hand, the real-time playing experience in digital world remains to have much left to be desired....

 

[mixermang]

i run through a ds-1 on the input but more to get the right impedance, boss pedal is 470k, closest secret sauce impedance is 230k, 1m is way too much. Also running into input 2 or 3 on the back removed something inexplicably annoying compared to plugging into the front, the modelling sounds way better with a SD SH-14 on a blower switch by bypassing whatever is in secret sauce, input 3 is my new favorite thing

 

[Feflicker]

I define feel as the interaction between what you play and what you hear. Feel can only be experienced by the person who is playing in the moment, and it’s this thing that the person’s brain automatically computes as they are playing.

Latency definitely affects the feel, as does a bajillion other things, like compression, sag, how the sound changes based on adjusting technique, etc.

Doesnt seem there is a way to measure and replicate someones personal experiences (emotions). The guitar itself isnt changing, and if it sounds the same, and responds with the same latency, thats the "same".

Thats why Id love to blind test these "feel" people and change pedals behind the scenes, switch to modelers, etc. My guess is they would fail all things being equal. Have to play with your ears, not your eyes.

 

[Mark Al]

Doesnt seem there is a way to measure and replicate someones personal experiences (emotions). The guitar itself isnt changing, and if it sounds the same, and responds with the same latency, thats the "same".

Thats why Id love to blind test these "feel" people and change pedals behind the scenes, switch to modelers, etc. My guess is they would fail all things being equal. Have to play with your ears, not your eyes.

We are way past the placebo effects, man, that simply definitely not it.

 

[My name is mud]

I have A/B compared a bunch of real analog pedals with the one modeled in Axe III, tone-wise, they can be dialed quite close, but feel wise, the real pedal clearly impart their own characters which is often lost in the digital model

This is exactly what I feel too some hours ago, as I bought myself some more fuzz and dist pedals these days . First I played with the pedals in the tube amps . Then I played with the pedals in the clean of the axe, then I re-try the dist models in the axe … yes you have “the sound” of the fuzz etc, but with the real deal the sound is more complete . I don’t know how to explain that . And the test is easy . Just plug a ds1 in the axe . I tweak the model to have the same “sound” but the other half of the thing is missing, mids or …
I purchased a funny pedal from behringer too, the super fuzz . The sound is MAD. This is a fz2 copy, cost 20 bucks , and good luck to have this sound in the axe .

Pedals sound fuller to me , more character

 

[My name is mud]

We are way past the placebo effects, man, that simply definitely not it.

No that’s not a placebo . But as ever … the feel when you play with a huge dist in the amp … the miced amp result of this in monitors sound like shit compared to that . Like being in a Ferrari or watching it on tv . Nothing to compare . As you said, in recording you don’t really hear it. But the feel …

 

[Feflicker]

We are way past the placebo effects, man, that simply definitely not it.

Ok, let me ask in a more direct way. What EXACTLY is different that you are noticing? Is it EQ? Latency? Compression? If its actually different as you suggest, it has to be measurable by some metric. It's fine if you dont know the answer, maybe Cliff can chime in

 

[My name is mud]

EQ and compression

 

[mixermang]

the other half of the thing is missing, mids or …

the pedal's tone control is a high pass and a low pass filter ganged on one pot, at center point the pedal has a crazy mid scoop of like 10 dB where the filters meet, a scoop that sweeps left/right with the tone knob. FAS doesn't model that kind of specifics for each pedal, the model tone knob is pedal-ish, anything else needed you have to roll it yourself

 

[My name is mud]

the pedal's tone control is a high pass and a low pass filter ganged on one pot, at center point the pedal has a crazy mid scoop of like 10 dB where the filters meet, a scoop that sweeps left/right with the tone knob. FAS doesn't model that kind of specifics for each pedal, the model tone knob is pedal-ish, anything else needed you have to roll it yourself

So don’t call it a ds1 .

 

[My name is mud]

Don’t want to be the ass, we already know that the axe is the best unit at this size sound wise etc etc. I m not saying it’s bad. But the main quest is to have the most accurate simulation of effects and amps . His new algorithm is a proof that once again, his main quest is to be the more accurate possible . Some People say “don’t care if the knobs are missing or don’t act like the real deal”, but I think that cliff prefer 10 times something perfect . So if a guy choose a ds1 in the axe, he need to see the 3 buttons that act exactly like the pedal, and now we are the kings .
This is just an example . So the op is not dreaming that his pedals are “different”. The quest is not over ! But yes, with the contain and options, we have already more than enough to built a nice tone . The discussion is more about the authenticity of what is supposed to be modeled.

 

[Guit'rilla]

I have been using 4~5 drive pedals in front of my Axe III for late night practice with headphone for a while now, e.g. treating a Fender tone patch in Axe III as the pedal platform.

I found I really like how things feels with analog pedals in front, i.e. it feels more real.

I have A/B compared a bunch of real analog pedals with the one modeled in Axe III, tone-wise, they can be dialed quite close, but feel wise, the real pedal clearly impart their own characters which is often lost in the digital model. The pedals I compared includes Timmy (V2 and V3), OCD (V2 and GE), Fulldrive V2, Prince of Tone, etc.

1v1 modeling, sure, tone-wise, they get really close, but on the other hand, FEEL is hard to describe and the difference there is often more than subtle for my fingers.

Agreed. I raised similar points in a thread a while back:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/anyone-upgrade-to-an-external-delay-pedal.164304/post-1969996

And my drive pedals still live in front of my Axe. I suspect that the difference is felt most keenly if playing "good" drive pedals for edge of breakup tone. Metal perhaps less so. But, for EOB, there is definitely a difference in "feel" and it isn't what I'd call slight. Perhaps the CNFB technique will eventually be applied to the pedals in the box and there will be greater parity. Time will tell . . .