Atomic active CLR - Missing "body"

[joegold]

So I've been testing and gigging my active CLR for about 5-6 weeks. Despite the fact that I can at last clearly hear myself on stage, the consensus amongst my bandmates and I is that for our onstage sound we miss the fullness and body that comes with playing through a genuine guitar cab. I've tried EQing my CLR all different ways but I cannot reproduce the same full, bottomy sound of my regular cabs. Pushing the low end merely results in an unbalanced, somewhat boxy "honk". The temptation is to go back to my power amp & cab setup except that I prefer what my CLR does with the tone in the upper frequencies... smoother, less harsh, more forgiving (even without EQ adjustments). Anyone else experiencing this?

There is a possibility that your band mates either don't know what they're talking about or don't know how to adjust their tones and playing to better fit in with what you're doing now.

Or, if you now sound the way you want to for you then you have to figure out how to give them what they need to hear as well.
This might involve putting some of your feed in their monitors.

The CLRs have great dispersion characteristics, for any speaker cabinet, but if you don't have it placed in an orientation that allows them to properly hear it then you'll need to send them some of your signal some other way.
Make sure that the CLRs are not just pointed at you but are also aimed somewhat at the other guys, or put some of your feed in their monitors.

If you've got your CLR on the floor, in the wedge orientation, with the Tilt EQ preset selected, and you don't have enough bottom end, then either you're using a really wimpy IR or the room you're playing in has very weird acoustic characteristics that are screwing up the bass response of the CLR.
If the latter then all you can do is add some bass via EQ, but that scenario is highly unlikely.

A single CLR will never feel like a 4 X 12 in the room but it should be able to sound very musical with lots of body.

I find that the response of the CLRs is most accurate in the free-field orientation with the FF EQ preset but that will feel even less like a real 4 X 12.
It will feel like a mic'd 4 X 12 coming through a really good P.A.

My guess is you simply don't have your tones dialed in yet as well as you think you do and you need to try some other IRs as well as experiment more with placement of the CLR.
"Clearly hearing yourself for the first time" is different than hearing yourself clearly but also with a great tone.

Or it might just be that FRFR guitar, live on stage, is going to be too hard to get used to for you and you'll only feel comfortable with a real cab.
There's no shame in that.
FRFR guitar is different and you have to be willing to adapt to it.
For many folks here the benefits are worth the change in comfort zone.

 

[joegold]

My IR is a mix of stock cabs #41 and #38. I haven't tried the OwnHammers. I remember buying a shedload of Redwirez IRs when I was on the Ultra and everyone was raving about them but I ended up never using them as I always preferred my regular cabs. So now I'm a bit leary about spending more money on such things, although I appreciate that the tech and the firmware has moved on a great deal.

How are you mixing stock cabs?
I don't believe that the .syx files are available for those are they?

Are you simply using a stereo cab block with each IR loaded?
If so then you're hearing these cabs in lo-res.
You might try using two Cab Blocks instead with each cab at hi-resolution.
Two Hi-res Cab Blocks sound just enough more sophisticated to make the more complicated routing worthwhile IMO.

 

[joegold]

Also, as someone else has said already...
If your regular 2 X 12 cabs that you're used to are open back then adjusting to FRFR, especially from a single CLR will be even harder.

 

[joegold]

Also...
If you post some presets we can have a listen for ourselves and make more informed suggestions.

 

[Kriig]

Some of the problem might be that a lot of FRFR is very accurate.

Guitar cabs are not. And guitarists are really use to "not accurate".

We as guitarists should get used to accurate... imho

 

[yek]

[Moved to PM]

 

[RDH]

Did the same, these posts are seldom on topic, and only tend to upset me and I can't seem to not read them If it's in front of me , seems to always suck me in, so avoidance is the answer for me!!!
Apologies to OP, for not staying on topic!!!

 

[yek]

Back on topic:

Tom Quayle recently posted a recording.

Besides his playing I was very impressed by the tone.
He mixed two RW IRs, one of them being an IR that captured the back of the cab (TC30-Back-6in, found in the Ambient folder).

Inspired by this unusual mix, I went to work. I added a "back of cab" IR to my favorite RW recipe, using Cab-Lab.
The result so far is very promising!
There's a natural boost in the low end / low mids, adding notable thump and depth, providing body and a percussive aspect to the sound.
Much different than adding bass, EQ-ing or whatever.

I then did the same with my OwnHammer IRs (even though OH already provides pre-mixed "LIVE" IRs).
I was glad to find an equivalent "rear" IR in the Studio 1x12 DLX set.
Adding that to the mix has the same result as described above. While maintaining the overall character of the tone.

I'm going to run with these new mixes in the coming weeks and see how they turn out live.

 

[kmanick]

Yek I believe the Modern mix 4X12 also has a "back of Room" Ir how are you mixing % wise/panning this in with your 'standard" IR?

 

[yek]

If I'm not mistaken, the ROOM mic is not similar to a "back" or "rear" capture. It's a a farfield and less suited for this purpose.

 

[ProfEmerald]

The FAS Mad Oak pack some nice rear captures that work well for this: 1x12 Nuclear Tone (+7 Mics on the REAR of the amp).

 

[theblogjammers]

Back on topic:

Tom Quayle recently posted a recording.

Besides his playing I was very impressed by the tone.
He mixed two RW IRs, one of them being an IR that captured the back of the cab (TC30-Back-6in, found in the Ambient folder).

Inspired by this unusual mix, I went to work. I added a "back of cab" IR to my favorite RW recipe, using Cab-Lab.
The result so far is very promising!
There's a natural boost in the low end / low mids, adding notable thump and depth, providing body and a percussive aspect to the sound.
Much different than adding bass, EQ-ing or whatever.

I then did the same with my OwnHammer IRs (even though OH already provides pre-mixed "LIVE" IRs).
I was glad to find an equivalent "rear" IR in the Studio 1x12 DLX set.
Adding that to the mix has the same result as described above. While maintaining the overall character of the tone.
Mission accomplished.

I'm going to run with these new mixes in the coming weeks and see how they turn out live.

This sounds promising--please let us know how it goes...

 

[RDH]

Back on topic:

Tom Quayle recently posted a recording.

Besides his playing I was very impressed by the tone.
He mixed two RW IRs, one of them being an IR that captured the back of the cab (TC30-Back-6in, found in the Ambient folder).
Inspired by this unusual mix, I went to work. I added a "back of cab" IR to my favorite RW recipe, using Cab-Lab.
The result so far is very promising!
There's a natural boost in the low end / low mids, adding notable thump and depth, providing body and a percussive aspect to the sound.
Much different than adding bass, EQ-ing or whatever.

I then did the same with my OwnHammer IRs (even though OH already provides pre-mixed "LIVE" IRs).
I was glad to find an equivalent "rear" IR in the Studio 1x12 DLX set.
Adding that to the mix has the same result as described above. While maintaining the overall character of the tone.
Mission accomplished.

I'm going to run with these new mixes in the coming weeks and see how they turn out live.

Thanks, Good point about back of Cab ir's ,Also I think the Impedence curves folder in Redwires folder gets forgotten ,I haven't messed with Redwires for a while ,gonna revisit them!

 

[jlynnb1]

it might stand to reason, then, that the 1x12 ownhammers have back of the cab mics in the mix....which might be one of the reasons they sound so good.

 

[Gamedojo]

Might have been mentioned...but:

The CLR and FRFR speakers in general have a wider directionality spread. Which means you are getting exactly your guitar tone spread all over the stage.

Guitar cabs have EXTREMELY directional "Beam" characteristics.

What does this mean? This means guitar cabs are heard by your bandmates almost 100% off axis which curls highs to the extreme.

Now your band hears what your real guitar tone is. And what the audience is hearing...

If you want a real comparison and trust your bandmates. Get rid of the reflectors on your 2x12s. Get them up on road cases and point them AT your bandmates and ask about the "Fullness".

FWIW, adding a midrange boost in the 770hz range helped my live patches when using an FRFR to give the sound a bigger footprint onstage.

But my personal opinion is that your idea of what you want your guitar to sound like and your bandmates idea are in conflict. And with the guitar cab, you've been able to have it your way, but "tricking" your bandmates with the more mellow off-axis version of your sound.

 

[Rotaholic]

Most 4x12s are set up on the floor, unless your playing sitting on the the floor or lying on your back you probably have no idea what a quad box actually sounds like, but I bet your shoes do. Chuck a quad box up on a bar leaner and watch your tone change, we'll your perception of your tone change

 

[RDH]

You Bet it changes ! Suddenly when that awesome in the room tone is pointed at your face , you can't turn it back away quick enough!

 

[smcrosby]

Back on topic:

Tom Quayle recently posted a recording.

Besides his playing I was very impressed by the tone.
He mixed two RW IRs, one of them being an IR that captured the back of the cab (TC30-Back-6in, found in the Ambient folder).

Inspired by this unusual mix, I went to work. I added a "back of cab" IR to my favorite RW recipe, using Cab-Lab.
The result so far is very promising!
There's a natural boost in the low end / low mids, adding notable thump and depth, providing body and a percussive aspect to the sound.
Much different than adding bass, EQ-ing or whatever.

I then did the same with my OwnHammer IRs (even though OH already provides pre-mixed "LIVE" IRs).
I was glad to find an equivalent "rear" IR in the Studio 1x12 DLX set.
Adding that to the mix has the same result as described above. While maintaining the overall character of the tone.
Mission accomplished.

I'm going to run with these new mixes in the coming weeks and see how they turn out live.

Go Yek!!! :encouragement:

 

[joegold]

Back on topic:

Tom Quayle recently posted a recording.

Besides his playing I was very impressed by the tone.
He mixed two RW IRs, one of them being an IR that captured the back of the cab (TC30-Back-6in, found in the Ambient folder).

Inspired by this unusual mix, I went to work. I added a "back of cab" IR to my favorite RW recipe, using Cab-Lab.
The result so far is very promising!
There's a natural boost in the low end / low mids, adding notable thump and depth, providing body and a percussive aspect to the sound.
Much different than adding bass, EQ-ing or whatever.

I then did the same with my OwnHammer IRs (even though OH already provides pre-mixed "LIVE" IRs).
I was glad to find an equivalent "rear" IR in the Studio 1x12 DLX set.
Adding that to the mix has the same result as described above. While maintaining the overall character of the tone.
Mission accomplished.

I'm going to run with these new mixes in the coming weeks and see how they turn out live.

FWIW
I've done similar things myself but wasn't any happier with the results compared to just using a close-mic'd IR with EQ from the Cab Block.
For right now, for me, it's the OW Thiele Cab EVM-12L Mix IRs, #10 to be exact.
It covers all my bases fairly well... so far.
But I don't really have all that many "bases" I'm trying to cover.

 

[joegold]

Thanks, Good point about back of Cab ir's ,Also I think the Impedence curves folder in Redwires folder gets forgotten ,I haven't messed with Redwires for a while ,gonna revisit them!

I have no idea how those IRs are supposed to be used.
Anyone?