Asking for your TRUTH

No. The near field is not uniform. That is why the sound changes drastically when moving the mic.

Ha I was kind of joking but then I thought about what you have said. If I'm understanding this the mic is only seeing a small part of the speaker at very close range right?. So what if you placed as many mics as possible over the entire speaker?
 
So if an I/R is a true representation of a close mic'ed sound, when it is amplified via FR would it not then become a representation of a far-field sound at the other end of the room :lol.

The sound of a close mic'd guitar cab played through a good FRFR system should sound just like having your ear up against the grille cloth of the guitar cab no matter what your listening position is in relation to the FRFR cab.
That's why close mic'ing always involves a lot of EQ in order to get musically useful results.

IMO
Engineers have always close mic'd guitar cabs and then EQ'd out the extremes of the frequency spectrum, because that is the only methodology available to them that even comes close to capturing a sound that is similar to what a guitar player expects to hear.
But it's only a compromise and it only comes close.

In theory, some sort of a mix of a far-field mic plus a close mic on a guitar cab should be able to nail the sound of a closed-back guitar cab (nailing the sound of an open back cab involves all sorts of other issues as well), as far as I can tell.
But in reality, in my limited experience, it doesn't work so well.
There's probably a way to do it.
I just haven't heard it yet.
 
I am not really much of an FRFR guy, but i think I've started to figure out why guys miss that amp in the room "fullness that you get from a real amp cab , at least
a theory that applies to my experience.
#1 most people that start out with an FRFR approach get one wedge. I don't know many people playing through 1X12 cabs that play metal or hard rock
a single 10 or 12" wedge is never going to cut it against a 2X12 of 4X12 cab. I tried with one
wedge and it didn't make the grade for me, so I went back to using a Recto 2X12. Now that I am testing out this Seismic wedge , I have also run it in tandem with my 2 Rokit 8's, now the Rokit 8's alone sound very good but get squashed very easily against a real 2x12...with the Seismic mixed in? it's a different ball game.
it's not really an issue of stereo but of an issue of moving air and sounding and feeling fuller.
I can't wait for Jay to get over here with the CLR and the RCF so we can try them all together in tandem and see how this ting measures up against the more expensive available options but more so (for my interest) how 2 or 3 of these running all at once changes the FRFR experience.
the 3 frfr speakers I have now when all running together with my 2X12 being fed from output 2 sounds freaking glorious.
 
Axefest Leipzig 2013 in Germany: RCF SMX12 vs. Marshall 4x12....the RCF "killed" the 4x12 Cab with no Problems...true.
With the Same IR of the original Cab there was almost no difference in Sound (although the RCF sounded less "flubby" and had more Low end....but when it Came to extreme Volumes, the 4x12 had absolutely no Chance....the cabinet was already distorting (the speakers, Not the Matrix Amp) and the RCF wasn't Even near to it's Limit...

A good 12" FRFR can kill ANY 4x12 Cabinet - Even the Big ones with 300 Watts Peak handling...15 People in a room have experienced this, so you are invited to make this experience by your own.....
 
ahhh… I guess all this makes some kinda sense…

I personally don't use an FRFR solution although I've tried them out…
I still prefer traditional cabs with the Axe live, and also prefer to record / practice with cab sims

Note: this comment is a reply to Cliff's comment to me, not the post above
 
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i use a poweramp and Alto Truesonic passive 12" monitors, and it does the amp in the room sound better than my real guitar cabinet.....but my presets are dialed in for that sound.
 
Ha I was kind of joking but then I thought about what you have said. If I'm understanding this the mic is only seeing a small part of the speaker at very close range right?. So what if you placed as many mics as possible over the entire speaker?

It depends at what distance they are placed. If they're all in the near field then you will get multiple miced snapshots of the nearfield which you can then mix. The nearfield is notoriously unpredictable with large variations from mm to mm.

This wont give you the representation of the acoustic environment of the far field though because the sound there is a combination of direct sound from the speaker and multiple reflections and phase interactions from the acoustic space. While reverb can simulate an acoustic space, it will not simulate the destructive and constructive interference perceived in the space where your ears are.

My thinking in all of this has been that if you want a good sound that you experience playing normally, then shoot the IR with the mic where your ears would be. You won't get an IR that will replace a close miced sound, or one that will do all situations for that cab, but you will get a more accurate representation of what your ears perceive. Room interactions will be sampled, and the problem is that on stage your guitar may still sound like you're playing in your room.

IMHO, the best compromise are the close miced and mixed IRs. It wont sound exactly the same, but it is a good representation of the cab that you can take anywhere. Sure, it's not perfect, but remember that guitar amps and cabs themselves are far from perfect. You will get used to it.
 
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My thinking in all of this has been that if you want a good sound that you experience playing normally, then shoot the IR with the mic where your ears would be. You won't get an IR that will replace a close miced sound, or one that will do all situations for that cab, but you will get a more accurate representation of what your ears perceive. Room interactions will be sampled, and the problem is that on stage your guitar may still sound like you're playing in your room.

The small number of far-field IRs that I've tried thus far have all fallen WAY short of even this.

Does anybody have any links to any far-field IRs that they believe actually come close?
 
A real cab has air volume that is selectively trapped, bounced or channeled. Besides the air flow and volume capacity of the cab design, you have the cab size, shape, ports and woods etc all of which accumulate to real air pressure being generated with every pulsation of the speaker generating the in room experience.

I looked inside a powered monitor ... the only air that was inside of it was a lot of "hot" air being pushed out by fans.

Dude, do you know what are you saying here? FRFR speakers move air just like a "real cab". That is what sound is: Air moving! FRFR cabs move air just like a standard 4-12 cab, except a 4-12 has four 12" speakers in it to move air. They are typically not ported so the only other source of air movement is off the cab sides, front and back that are vibrating from the air in the cab moving it (plus the mechanical coupling of the speaker to the front of the cab). That is one big difference (besides frequency response): A 4-12 cab "in the room" has sound coming off the cab going in all directions thereby bouncing off surfaces and reflecting back to your ears. That sounds and feels different than a smaller FRFR monitor cab. If you had four 12" FRFR monitors, they would actually be able to move more air than a typical 4-12 because they are built to project bass, and guitar speakers are not since they (by design) aren't flat response. The lower the note, the more air movement it takes to reproduce. Simple physics.
 
The small number of far-field IRs that I've tried thus far have all fallen WAY short of even this.

Does anybody have any links to any far-field IRs that they believe actually come close?

Well, the point of the farfield IR taken in this way would be to sample the small personal space. This is going to feel VERY alien unless it's your own space that is being sampled.

Your ears deceive you to a huge degree typically. When we hear or see something out of context, we are very poor at filling in the blanks, psychologically. It's an evolutionary thing, where we expect to see or hear things in a certain space and without the space, the perception seems alien, the classic 'gorilla in the basketball game' video being a case in point as well as numerous optical illusions, which are perception, rather than actuality based (hence the term 'illusion').

For myself, I prefer getting used to nearfield IRs and mixes 'as is' and relying on my brain to shift slightly and fill in the blanks.
 
The small number of far-field IRs that I've tried thus far have all fallen WAY short of even this.

Does anybody have any links to any far-field IRs that they believe actually come close?

I make far field IRs. It's fun, so why not! :) These are my latest captures, and I also think they are the best ones I have done so far: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...e-far-field-irs-marshall-1960av-v30-4x12.html
These do not contain any room reflections, so it's purely an IR of the cab at a distance.

I won't claim the experience will be identical to playing through a real cab in a room, but is certainly closer than what you get with a close miked IR.
 
Well, the point of the farfield IR taken in this way would be to sample the small personal space. This is going to feel VERY alien unless it's your own space that is being sampled.

Your ears deceive you to a huge degree typically. When we hear or see something out of context, we are very poor at filling in the blanks, psychologically. It's an evolutionary thing, where we expect to see or hear things in a certain space and without the space, the perception seems alien, the classic 'gorilla in the basketball game' video being a case in point as well as numerous optical illusions, which are perception, rather than actuality based (hence the term 'illusion').

For myself, I prefer getting used to nearfield IRs and mixes 'as is' and relying on my brain to shift slightly and fill in the blanks.

The last sentence is what I have done and it works for me for the most part.

The first part of your post is where I was going with the close mic'ed speaker with a mass of mic's covering the speaker surface... as that is where the sound is originating from to begin with. You get a snap shot of the entire speaker up close. As the sound is reproduced with an FR speaker and propagates, the room reflections will combine with the close mic sound to give a full representation of the speaker as if it were the actual speaker in the cab in the room, At least this sounded good when I was typing it up :lol.

Or how about this, Maybe a new type of mic needs to be developed that can listen to the entire speaker surface as one mic at a given distance :?. What do ya think is it possible would it make a difference or is that to science fiction for it to actually work?
 
Axefest Leipzig 2013 in Germany: RCF SMX12 vs. Marshall 4x12....the RCF "killed" the 4x12 Cab with no Problems...true.
With the Same IR of the original Cab there was almost no difference in Sound (although the RCF sounded less "flubby" and had more Low end....but when it Came to extreme Volumes, the 4x12 had absolutely no Chance....the cabinet was already distorting (the speakers, Not the Matrix Amp) and the RCF wasn't Even near to it's Limit...

A good 12" FRFR can kill ANY 4x12 Cabinet - Even the Big ones with 300 Watts Peak handling...15 People in a room have experienced this, so you are invited to make this experience by your own.....

If you say so ...

You are talking volume here -- volume is not the issue and is a function of the efficiency of the speakers used.

A high powered monitor might get louder than a 4x12 (depending on speakers in the 4x12 etc) but there is no way I will believe or buy that it sounded "in the room" better than a 4x12 or any well made quality guitar cabinet.
 
^^ Concur.

Volume aside, no single FRFR speaker will compare to the feeling of four 12" guitar speakers moving air. It just has that feeling.
 
The last sentence is what I have done and it works for me for the most part.

The first part of your post is where I was going with the close mic'ed speaker with a mass of mic's covering the speaker surface... as that is where the sound is originating from to begin with. You get a snap shot of the entire speaker up close. As the sound is reproduced with an FR speaker and propagates, the room reflections will combine with the close mic sound to give a full representation of the speaker as if it were the actual speaker in the cab in the room, At least this sounded good when I was typing it up :lol.

Or how about this, Maybe a new type of mic needs to be developed that can listen to the entire speaker surface as one mic at a given distance :?. What do ya think is it possible would it make a difference or is that to science fiction for it to actually work?

I know where you're coming from but this will probably never be the case.

Acoustic interference is far less 'perfect' than analogue or digital in the box simulated interference. Logically it should work, but the subtleties of the interference of the exact space currently being played in need to be factored in for the perfect 'in the room' feel.

Regarding a mic being developed, that presents a whole host of related problems. For starters, a mic diaphragm captures a certain place in the acoustic space. A diaphragm doesn't capture the entire surface of it to the same degree. For example, waves hitting the edge of the diaphram have far less of an effect than the centre. Now this isn't so much of a problem where the field is stable, such as in the far field, but in the near field where the acoustic differences are distinct from mm to mm, a 1 inch diaphragm is a best guess, tbh. If we develop a mic with a larger diaphragm, the mass will be too much to capture high frequencies efficiently. Remember, the principle behind a diaphragm is essentially a speaker cone in reverse (yes, this includes ribbons), and we know how inefficient they are in transduction. So, we need a mic with a zero mass diaphragm and a surface area wide enough to capture the entire area for it to be entirely accurate. I'm interested in the development of graphene speakers for a similar reason, because the less mass you have, the less energy lost.

Another idea is that you could generate a massless field (or close to, such as an electromagnetic field or similar....) to pick up the vibration of the air molecules, but tbh, we're in Star Trek territory with that one, and good old Heisenberg (the first, not the meth cooking one ;) ) had a couple of things to say regarding particle detection and accuracy.

IMO it is a bit of a pointless exercise. We can't expect a speaker to sound the same from room to room just the same as we cannot expect our voices to sound the same from one environment to another. When we record in different spaces, we don't expect to be exactly the same. It's just that the amount of options and tools in the Axe means that we expect to be able to do it. We need to learn that we cannot, and to live with what the Axe can do, which surpasses any guitar tool that I know of.

In a related note, there was a study done (I'll find references for anyone interested) which found that the less options people had, the happier they were. This, I think, is a case of dissatisfaction (mild, it must be said) arising from the sheer amount of options on offer.
 
If you say so ...

You are talking volume here -- volume is not the issue and is a function of the efficiency of the speakers used.

A high powered monitor might get louder than a 4x12 (depending on speakers in the 4x12 etc) but there is no way I will believe or buy that it sounded "in the room" better than a 4x12 or any well made quality guitar cabinet.

Just a suggestion, but have you gone to the speaker resonance page? I'm assuming you have, but I just wanted to throw that out there in case it was missed. It cgave me a happy smile when I used it, and have Scott Peterson to thank. He did a great video on it, and it sorted out (largely) the in the room feel for me. :)

Also, this is just a musing, but I would be interested to hear your take on 4 1x12" cabs when compared to 1 4x12". Air displacement over area should be the same, although, now that I'm typing this, the 12" FRFR speakers would need to be mounted in a 4x12" cab to get the same effect. It might be interesting though to see if the effect is acoustic or psychological, you know? Just a thought.
 
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