Can an old dog learn a new trick?

paranoid

paranoid

Fractal Fanatic
I've been out of seriously playing for a few years now due to a bad trigger finger surgery on my left hand. I am finally getting back to playing guitar and am trying to expand my horizons. I played drums in the high school band, so I know the beats of music but never learned to read the notation. I started playing guitar in the mid 80's, and learned by ear. I learned the fingering of the major mode and the mixolydian mode some where on the journey and pretty well only use those fingerings to learn new songs, and play guitar in general. I now am trying to get a grasp on the entire fret board, but find myself back in my comfort zone of the major mode. Is there any good practices to try and break this habit?
 
Glad to hear you’re back in the saddle.

I played trombone in the school band from 6th grade thru to high school graduation. In 7th or 8th as I was starting my guitar journey I got involved in a jazz quartet with our band teacher who played clarinet, learned a lot of general music theory, but the band teacher was not really versed in guitar so I was on my own with specifics.

I’m also stuck in my comfort zone, I think I’m pretty well versed in chords but for lead structure I’m stuck in major and minor pentatonic, and phrygian modes.

Now that I’m in my late 50’s I’m seriously considering going for some advanced lessons, I just need to find the right teacher. I want to get out of my rut.
 
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I’ve been playing 35 years and I’ve just decided to put some sticky dots on the fretboard.
A few different colours for a few different keys or modes.
 
Good for you, it’s never too late to learn anything! You need to work hard breaking those old playing habits to keep from falling back into them when things get challenging.

Figure what it is about those “comfort zone fingerings” that’s not working and replace them with the new playing habits that work. this means that as soon as you start creeping into the comfort zone 🛑 playing! Take a breath and play the new fingering habits.

Over time you’ll carve new neural pathways into your brain which will codify the new habit.

With time and intentional effort you will learn the new tricks. Woof!
 
Think of practicing any melodic structure (scale, arpeggios,...) in two ways:

One key - all positions (helps you to get to know all the fingerings)

One position - all keys (helps you getting to know the fretboard, playing in all keys and over changes, killing the dead spots)
 
Heinzi said:
One key - all positions (helps you to get to know all the fingerings)

One position - all keys (helps you getting to know the fretboard, playing in all keys and over changes, killing the dead spots)
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I try this in practice, but when trying to figure out a new song I seem to forget the other mode fingerings. I guess I may be trying to rush it, it has been manyyyy years of playing one finger pattern. I probably should try and learn the theory not just the fingerings.
 
wesleyamltd said:
Figure what it is about those “comfort zone fingerings” that’s not working
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I don't know that the fingerings aren't working, I have limped through all these years. I know however that I am greatly limiting my playing when only playing lead in the major mode and it's octave. Some times making fluid runs is complicated when I can't quickly figure out the other positions of the same notes.
 
All the modes are the same seven notes of the key. If you know the major (ionian) mode, just extend the mode further up the fretboard through additional octaves. To get the next mode up, just start on the next note and play up to its octave using the same notes as before. It's all just different framing within one pattern of notes and intervals for a given key.

Key notes/degrees in each mode:
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1 (major)
Dorian = 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2
Phrygian = 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3
Lydian = 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4
Mixolydian = 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Aolian = 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (natural minor)
Locrian = 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Intervals between between the notes would be: (W = whole step up, h = half step up)
Ionian = W W h W W W h
Dorian = W h W W W h W
Phrygian = h W W W h W W
Lydian = W W W h W W h
Mixolydian = W W h W W h W
Aolian = W h W W h W W
Locrian = h W W h W W W

You can also think of them as alterations of the Major scale to play them in the same position moving each note accordingly:
(b = flat/half step down, # = sharp/half step up compared to the major scale)
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1
Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 1
Phrygian = 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 1
Lydian = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1
Mixolydian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 1
Aolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 1
Locrian = 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, 1
 
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mr_fender said:
All the modes are the same seven notes of the key. If you know the major (ionian) mode, just extend the mode further up the fretboard through additional octaves. To get the next mode up, just start on the next note and play up to its octave using the same notes as before. It's all just different framing within one pattern of notes and intervals for a given key.

Key notes/degrees in each mode:
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1 (major)
Dorian = 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2
Phrygian = 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3
Lydian = 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4
Mixolydian = 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Aolian = 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (natural minor)
Locrian = 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Intervals between between the notes would be: (W = whole step up, h = half step up)
Ionian = W W h W W W h
Dorian = W h W W W h W
Phrygian = h W W W h W W
Lydian = W W W h W W h
Mixolydian = W W h W W h W
Aolian = W h W W h W W
Locrian = h W W h W W W

You can also think of them as alterations of the Major scale to play them in the same position moving each note accordingly: (b = flat, # = sharp)
Ionian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1
Dorian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 1
Phrygian = 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 1 ( or #1, 2, 3, #4, #5, 6, 7, #1)
Lydian = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 1
Mixolydian = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 1
Aolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 1
Locrian = 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, 1 (or #1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, #1
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I understand that starting on the second note of the major is the first note on the next mode and so on. Your alteration explanation is how ever confusing, due to my lack of theory. It takes me a long time to take a song and figure out the major mode that fits the cord progression, and then if the lead does not follow the notes in the cords I have a very hard time figuring it out. After my
nearly 40 years playing guitar, I would think I would be able to figure songs out in just a few minutes, and use the whole fret board, not just a box.
 
The alteration method is easier to think about in terms of fingerings. If you take a major scale pattern on the fretboard and raise or lower the indicated notes in that pattern, you'll get that mode starting on the root of that fingering.

For example if you know the major scale fingering for A Major (on a standard tuned 6 string) as:

Code: 
A Major
e--------------------------------------------4--5--
B--------------------------------------5--7--------
G-----------------------------4--6--7--------------
D--------------------4--6--7-----------------------
A-----------4--5--7--------------------------------
E-----5--7-----------------------------------------

If you wanted A Lydian, the alteration shows it has a sharp 4th compared to the major scale, so you'd take that same A major fingering and raise the 4th notes up one fret:

Code: 
A Lydian
e--------------------------------------------4--5--
B--------------------------------------5--7--------
G-----------------------------4--6--8--------------
D--------------------4--6--7-----------------------
A-----------4--6--7--------------------------------
E-----5--7-----------------------------------------

If you wanted A Mixolydian, it has a flat 7th compared to the major scale, so it would look like this:

Code: 
A Mixolydian
e--------------------------------------------3--5--
B--------------------------------------5--7--------
G-----------------------------4--6--7--------------
D--------------------4--5--7-----------------------
A-----------4--5--7--------------------------------
E-----5--7-----------------------------------------
 
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Another common one is Dorian. If you compare the alterations between Dorian and Aolian, they're almost the same except Dorian has one less flat on the 6th note. Aeolian mode is the same as the natural minor scale. That means if you play a common natural minor scale pattern but raise the sixth notes by one fret, you'll get Dorian.

Code: 
D minor
e---------------------------------------------------------------10--
B---------------------------------------------------10--11--13------
G--------------------------------------------10--12-----------------
D-------------------------------10--12--14--------------------------
A------------------10--12--13---------------------------------------
E-----10--12--13----------------------------------------------------

D Dorian
e---------------------------------------------------------------10--
B---------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
G--------------------------------------------10--12-----------------
D-------------------------------10--12--14--------------------------
A------------------10--12--14---------------------------------------
E-----10--12--13----------------------------------------------------
 
Hey-Been a while. Glad to hear you are back playing again.I don't think you need lessons persay. There is so much info on the internet for any questions you might have.
But from the few conversations we have had over the years.
Just play and who cares if it's a major or Mixolydian scale or whatever-Just play it..... Just search modes and scales if you really feel a need to.
It's really easy, it's the application that matters...........Thirds , thirds are big!
 
This ↑ 100%. Theory is not needed to make music. It's more useful for analyzing it after the fact. I was a music minor in college, so I have a rudimentary knowledge of the theory. Putting it into action when playing or writing is a whole other ball of wax. I learned by ear and tabs as a teen, so my brain has a hard time bridging those two approaches. The more I try to apply theory, the more my music ends up sounding formulaic and predictable. Of course the fact that I suck a writing music doesn't help much either. :p
 
In my experience the reason why modes confuse so many people is that they are often explained on the basis of the same key/accidental group (C ion, D dor, E phryg....)

It's much easier to get a grasp if you try to start them on the same root note (C ion, C dor, C phryg,...) so you can see how the intervals and tensions change. You can also see it in relation to the common major and natural minor scale - there are 3 major modes, 3 minor modes and the halfdim locrian mode.

To ionian theres a brighter mode, (lydian with #11) and a darker mode (mixolydian with b7) - so only one note changes relative to ion!

Same in nat. minor: brighter (dorian with 13) and darker (phyrgian with b9) - again only one not changes.

In most cases these are the charactersitic tones you can emphasize to milk and spell out the sound of each mode
 
Stratman68 said:
Hey-Been a while. Glad to hear you are back playing again.I don't think you need lessons persay. There is so much info on the internet for any questions you might have.
But from the few conversations we have had over the years.
Just play and who cares if it's a major or Mixolydian scale or whatever-Just play it..... Just search modes and scales if you really feel a need to.
It's really easy, it's the application that matters...........Thirds , thirds are big!
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Going to suggest TrueFire video instruction for folks who can download videos and not be worried about file capacity. There's one teacher named Robby Calvo (easy to listen-to voice) with a video named "Sweet Notes." The emphasis of this video is to teach the student how to improv and then land on a sweet note. Why a sweet note? If one finishes a musical phrase or string of notes with something other than a sweet note, there will still exist the tension imparted by the string of notes. Landing on a sweet note provides a musical tension release that sounds naturally more pleasing to the ear.

Check him out. Robby emphasizes landing on sweet notes, yes, but he does not limit the sweet note to root notes, or thirds. Sometimes he might extend that to 5ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths or 13ths. Calvo also describes why some notes won't sound as pleasing compared to others.

The purpose is to help the student make better note choices when he plays. With a certain regard to restraint, thinking regards to scales works only when the accompanying played chord is built around that chord.

A key element is to teach the student to recognize how a chord is constructed, and to use a scale or mode that corresponds to the construction of the chord. Once you can wrap your head around chord construction, and learning the notes of the fretboard, scales and modes are easier to understand regards improv.

The focus is designed to help the student identify what scales or modes will play over chord changes so that landing notes sound more pleasing and sweet, not something, "sour"?
 
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Playing music is like riding bike. Once you’re musical you don’t lose it.

Being musical comes deeper from within. Technique can be learned and honed.

If you can tap a beat on your steering wheel and whistle a melody at the same time you can play anything with enough technical practice.
 
nomoretubes said:
Playing music is like riding bike. Once you’re musical you don’t lose it.

Being musical comes deeper from within. Technique can be learned and honed.

If you can tap a beat on your steering wheel and whistle a melody at the same time you can play anything with enough technical practice.
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Agreed, and that is how I've got to this point, but now I feel that I've hit a wall, and personally I would like to advance as a player.

I can noodle along all day long; I've been gigging for decades. But eventually I find that I'm just wandering about and not really playing with purpose.
 
Domct203 said:
Agreed, and that is how I've got to this point, but now I feel that I've hit a wall, and personally I would like to advance as a player.

I can noodle along all day long; I've been gigging for decades. But eventually I find that I'm just wandering about and not really playing with purpose.
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Ive heard good things about advanced lessons in this regard. Helps get you over the hump.

Sometimes you just need to hear new chord progressions paired while noodling with modes to train your ears further with good and bad notes.

You already know the major and minor scales so now you’re just applying them slightly different using your ears which in turn trains new sound and licks to otherwise familiar shapes.

If you don’t have a looper, get one.
 
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