Touch-screen: IMO not a wish in FM9

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Going from Helix LT to AX8, to full Helix, to FM9T (with another Helix LT as a backup for few months before swapping that for FM3) I can say with certainly that the touch capabilities of the Helix footswitches put its UI higher on my satisfaction list. The 1% of editing I couldn't do on the Helix was moving blocks between the two paths, something a touchscreen wouldn't have solved (in that gen of product, anyway). Plus the tone was pretty good and fun to play when I learned how to dial it in. Perfectly cromulent for gigging and recording for me,

The Fractal UI is not bad, it's just different. Would I love it if I could touch a footswitch and open parameters for that block? Absolutely. Do I wish I could edit Perform pages without the PC/Mac editor? Yeah, that would be nice. Does it enrage me that I need to press buttons and can't touch the screen? Hell no. It feels like I need to know a bit more to operate it, but I'm okay with that; it's my tool and I knew going into it that Fractal UI appears more techincal because it kind of is, and that level of control is optional while the base tone sounds and feels better to me (and others)

A touchscreen is "nice to have" but if we're talking about what mass-market consumers want, let's be real - many don't know what they want beyond a product that is good and easy to use, but ease of use trumps overall product quality it seems. Case in point - iPhone vs Android - many say iPhones are easy to use. I work in the B2B telecom space and let me tell you, iPhone users tend to know far less about how to work their device than Android users AND yet they think it's easier to use. They both do the same thing but menu options look different.

Fractal = Android = more customizable, more freedom, though you may need to educate yourself to unlock that potential. A touchscreen wouldn't change the reliability and flexibility the product is known for
 
sprint said:
+1 but not sure about "all agree" as statements here often suggest an opinion that T.S. = Intuitive, and Non T.S. = Non Intuitive, and / or, that an intuitive interface can somehow compensate for being uninformed about the overall concept of what a given feature actually is and how it works in general (no need for CC's course for that - just RTFM a little). (Pretending / Head in the Sand indeed 🤣 - pretending that an intuitive UI will somehow impart knowledge - it doesn't, it's just a logical guide to the controls - we have that already in the context of a tonne more controls in Axfx compared to HX).
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And I get that, especially for people who haven't regularly had to design UI's as I have. Aside from just appearing "more modern," touchscreens offer flexibility that knobs and switches don't, but they aren't a panacea by themselves and have their own pitfalls and challenges, especially in a live environment.

Regardless of whether the UI is centered around knobs or touchscreens, I think it's risky to compare Fractal's UI philosophy with others in terms of ease-of-use. To a degree, they are currently apples and oranges in that Fractal has chosen to surface a lot of deep features that are user-editable and even controllable on the fly, while other manufacturers have fewer features to surface. And typically, when FAS has tried to remove a feature, they run into the inevitable loss aversion bias backlash that accompanies it.

To me, that level of editability and the tonal flexibility it gives me make a more complex UI worth it. That said, if I found a modeler that magically replicated the lower gain singing feedback ability of Robben Ford's Dumble at only 90dB, I wouldn't really care how it did it. I'm a professional UX researcher and designer with a lot of experience, so I have my own opinions about this, not that my day job makes those opinions more or less valid than anyone else's. We are all end users here.

If there is a lesson from this past couple of years that I might recommend FAS consider learning from, it actually comes from the Fender FR-* series: there seems to be a need for some basic Bass, Mid, Treble and Presence controls to tweak overall tone regardless of what FRFR is being used on stage. Set up your tones in your studio on a flat system, but a different system and room and other factors make it so the user needs to make some fast changes. Providing those parameters (even with some configurability under the surface, such as center frequencies and Q) on readily-reached controls on either user-configured knobs such as the Behringer Wing series offers or via a lockable touch screen...I think that might be valuable.

But that's just me. To do a feature like that right, along with building an overall UI/UX strategy, I'd want to do some actual user research and put some quantitative data behind the qualitative opinions before leaping. It's a tradeoff regardless, and it should be a tradeoff informed by actual data.
 
You can tweak the tone on the fly pretty easily now. Double tap the A knob and page over to the amp's tone controls. You can also add parameters to the Performance pages and access those quickly as well.

I think the global Output EQ's could be a bit quicker to access. Maybe put them on pages to the left of the Home screen.
 
DrGreencock said:
Would I love it if I could touch a footswitch and open parameters for that block? Absolutely. Do I wish I could edit Perform pages without the PC/Mac editor? Yeah, that would be nice. Does it enrage me that I need to press buttons and can't touch the screen? Hell no.
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So you want the ability to reach away from the encoders to touch a capacitive footswitch, but don't see the abililty to touch a screen near the encoders as a benefit?

The capacitive footswitches were a good stop gap leading into the age of touch, when touchscreens were new and only on phones, but the level of granularity and UI expressiveness you get with a touch screen is so much better. How are you going to drag/drop blocks or patches with footswitches? How are you going to type patch names with footswitches? (just a couple examples).

I'm going to say it, (and this is also true of Line6/Helix users circa 2018-2024 who all screamed they didn't want a touch screen), but the reason people don't want touch is it will render their investement obsolete. If fractal offers a FM9 with modern touch interface (and they can do it if they want to), the existing products will lose 60% of their value overnight.

Notice no one is complaining now about the new Helix touchscreen. All those guys complaining about it have already upgraded.
 
mr_fender said:
You can tweak the tone on the fly pretty easily now. Double tap the A knob and page over to the amp's tone controls. You can also add parameters to the Performance pages and access those quickly as well.

I think the global Output EQ's could be a bit quicker to access. Maybe put them on pages to the left of the Home screen.
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I know that's there, but tweaking the tone controls of the amp is not the same thing, though. You're right that the global controls are in there - I was just suggesting a way to surface that same functionality in a way that users of the FR-12/10 seem to find useful.
 
AxeFxCurious said:
If fractal offers a FM9 with modern touch interface (and they can do it if they want to), the existing products will lose 60% of their value overnight.
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I'
m sure the next generation FM9 will have enough advanced features to make my current FM9 worth much less. Who buys digital for an investment?
 
AxeFxCurious said:
So you want the ability to reach away from the encoders to touch a capacitive footswitch, but don't see the abililty to touch a screen near the encoders as a benefit?

The capacitive footswitches were a good stop gap leading into the age of touch, when touchscreens were new and only on phones, but the level of granularity and UI expressiveness you get with a touch screen is so much better. How are you going to drag/drop blocks or patches with footswitches? How are you going to type patch names with footswitches? (just a couple examples).

I'm going to say it, (and this is also true of Line6/Helix users circa 2018-2024 who all screamed they didn't want a touch screen), but the reason people don't want touch is it will render their investement obsolete. If fractal offers a FM9 with modern touch interface (and they can do it if they want to), the existing products will lose 60% of their value overnight.

Notice no one is complaining now about the new Helix touchscreen. All those guys complaining about it have already upgraded.
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I'm just saying it would be nice to tap any footswitch and instantly get to that block's settings. I do use the Mooer shroom switch toppers on my FM9... my point is kinda moot anyway. :cool: I recognize we have the ability to double-tap the A-E encoders to get to amp, cab, and drive settings (I use those shortcuts all the time) and since I know my unit very well now, it's pretty quick and easy for me to get where I need to go.

Choosing Fractal over QC and Helix came despite public UI gripes, but in light of praise for its sound. If the FM9 had launched with a touchscreen that wouldn't have changed my opinion at the time (4 years ago I went on the waitlist, 3 years ago I got mine). If the next-gen FM unit has touch, I might experience a bout of GAS but ultimately, my FM9 is far from obsolete. The value and enjoyment I get from my unit is incalculable and even trying out a friend's QC I did not feel swayed.

I do understand your point, I suppose I don't fall into that camp though
 
  • It's mechanically and electrically delicate, with higher environmental sensitivity
For Fractal gear (which takes abuse), I agree. If something is expected to be handled, stomped on for a couple of hours before being thrown into its case to be trundled here and there, banged and bumped in transit all the way to the next city to be unpacked, and every night, more of the same? Something might be nice to have, but it could easily become a liability for being a less than necessary failure point.
 
DrGreencock said:
Choosing Fractal over QC and Helix came despite public UI gripes, but in light of praise for its sound.
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Yes, absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, every FX3/FM9 is going to be doing work 20 years from now. They will be on someone's desk.

The issue is that the other companies are/have caught up in sound quality. People are not dumb. At some point there are going to be A/B/C videos on youtube showing that fractal/agoura/real amp are virtually indistinguishable. At that point, the UI and features are going to be why you choose one over the other. Line6 has a huge lead.

I think Fractal has 3ish years to get their UI/feature set up to snuff. Just a WAG but when Line6 has 100+ agoura models it will be the best device by a long shot. They may trickle out, OR they may start doing batch conversions of their existing amps. My guess is they will drip feed them to make it look like the "component level" modeling they are doing is God's work.

I think its good idea for Fractal to include a NAM player, but that won't get them out of the UI/feature deficit. I already think models are better than profiles.
 
Mark-B said:
  • It's mechanically and electrically delicate, with higher environmental sensitivity
For Fractal gear (which takes abuse), I agree. If something is expected to be handled, stomped on for a couple of hours before being thrown into its case to be trundled here and there, banged and bumped in transit all the way to the next city to be unpacked, and every night, more of the same? Something might be nice to have, but it could easily become a liability for being a less than necessary failure point.
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It could actually cost less. These are off the shelf parts with a plug to the circuit board. A touch screen probably costs $20 and can be user swapped. As long as they choose a part that is readily available. Phones get their screen replaced all the time.
 
AxeFxCurious said:
The problem with Fractal is that if you are using a computer editor, you then need to ask, maybe I should be using plugins? If you are not gigging or using the device in real world, then plugins are infinitely better for music production as they integrate with daw, can be changed without reamping, etc etc.
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No thanks. If I'm at my computer I don't wish to purchase a dedicated interface or have to fire up an app or DAW just to play. My AF3 has everything already in one package.
 
Sigh.

I own a Stadium. I don't sit here and talk about it because we have another forum that isn't the manufacturer forum where we talk about it. It's a great device but obviously is in early stages. It's a considerable sonic upgrade from the past gen to my ears.

I had the TurdblasterPro for a few weeks. It felt like a touchscreen bolted onto a last gen skeuomorphic interface. Yes it can sound good but the signal chain implementation is super clunky and it feels like it will never be "caught up" despite them putting some work into it for their semi-annual updates. Rotating encoder footswitches are great so I'll give them that. Good on them but they'll never be something I'd choose as my daily player.

QC got a significant update but don't care because they are a gross company.

The VP and AM interfaces are a huge ease of use step up for the end user. HUGE. And no one. NO. ONE. Out Cliff's the Cliff. This doom and gloom weirdo crap is for the birds. So is the "NOTHING NEEDS IMPROVED" line either; so we're kind of at a stalemate.
 
JiveTurkey said:
Sigh.

I own a Stadium. I don't sit here and talk about it because we have another forum that isn't the manufacturer forum where we talk about it. It's a great device but obviously is in early stages. It's a considerable sonic upgrade from the past gen to my ears.

I had the TurdblasterPro for a few weeks. It felt like a touchscreen bolted onto a last gen skeuomorphic interface. Yes it can sound good but the signal chain implementation is super clunky and it feels like it will never be "caught up" despite them putting some work into it for their semi-annual updates. Rotating encoder footswitches are great so I'll give them that. Good on them but they'll never be something I'd choose as my daily player.

QC got a significant update but don't care because they are a gross company.

The VP and AM interfaces are a huge ease of use step up for the end user. HUGE. And no one. NO. ONE. Out Cliff's the Cliff. This doom and gloom weirdo crap is for the birds. So is the "NOTHING NEEDS IMPROVED" line either; so we're kind of at a stalemate.
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I've seen alot of doom and gloom about the Kemper at your personal playground forum. I don't remember if it was from your mouth/fingers, but the consensus "over there" is that the other profilers do it better, and the upgraded Kemper doesn't offer the necessary boost in features to justify it.

You are applying different logic to different companies. JiveTurkey never known to be consisent, just says whatever makes him feel good.

Let the Kemper be a reminder of what can happen when you don't innovate or at least copy the state of art. It was top of the game, now it is bottom. In just a few years.
 
AxeFxCurious said:
I've seen alot of doom and gloom about the Kemper at your personal playground forum. I don't remember if it was from your mouth/fingers, but the consensus "over there" is that the other profilers do it better, and the upgraded Kemper doesn't offer the necessary boost in features to justify it.

You are applying different logic to different companies. JiveTurkey never known to be consisent, just says whatever makes him feel good.

Let the Kemper be a reminder of what can happen when you don't innovate or at least copy the state of art. It was top of the game, now it is bottom. In just a few years.
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Doom and gloom is a fairly accurate take in that situation. Whether or not it plays out that way in real time. What's your alter-ego over there?
 
JiveTurkey said:
Doom and gloom is a fairly accurate take in that situation. Whether or not it plays out that way in real time. What's your alter-ego over there?
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Sigh.

And by extension could happen to any product that does not keep innovating. As I've said the Fractal has a large lead in number of models, but that could change in a blink of eye depending on Helix market plan. They could batch convert all their old models to agoura or they could drip feed.

TMP is a turd because it is too dumbed down to be in this conversation.
 
+1 for Mobile app control.
ruso said:
In my opinion, virtually every person on the planet already owns a smartphone or tablet with a high-quality touchscreen. Just release a mobile app and let people use the device they already have—no need to add a touchscreen to the modeler itself.
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What he said.
And in doing so, it would seem to follow the unit would cost less also.
 
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