IEM price point and sound quality

[OrganicZed]

IEMs seem to be subject to personal preference in a large degree. I have some KZ ZS10 pro that are budget friendly and I have a set of 64 Audio N8 custom IEMs that were expensive.

The KZ would work fine for live use if you got a good fit with some aftermarket tips and upgraded the cable to something a bit more malleable. I would want some EQ to tame the brash high end as well.

The 64 Audio set sounds objectively better and the fit is much more comfortable / secure, but they are not 20x better even though they cost 20x more. I bought them because I wanted to use them for playing both live and at home for silent practice. I didn’t want to compromise on the sound quality when playing silently. The benefit of having a nice IEM for live use was a bonus in my case.

My suggestion is that you should spend what you are comfortable spending and not more. If having it all is important, then save up and get some high end customs from a reputable company. If your priority is just getting through the gig then get some $50 - $150 universals, invest in some good tips, and call it a day. If you want the improved isolation and fit that custom molds give but don’t really care about having tons of clarity and pristine audio, then an entry or mid range custom IEM would be a good choice.

 

[JoKeR III]

The Alclair sound their best when I keep very slight pressure to hold the bud into my ear.

Try a bit of KY jelly (what some IEM makers use for "ear lube") or lip balm where the IEM sits in your ear. I almost gave up on the 64 Audio because they were very uncomfortable after longer sessions and lost seal a few times. I now apply a bit of Carmex lip balm to my ears before putting them in and have had a consistently good seal.

 

[scottp]

Try a bit of KY jelly (what some IEM makers use for "ear lube") or lip balm where the IEM sits in your ear. I almost gave up on the 64 Audio because they were very uncomfortable after longer sessions and lost seal a few times. I now apply a bit of Carmex lip balm to my ears before putting them in and have had a consistently good seal.

Yes. The Alclairs when new shipped with a small bottle of lube. Very good point!

 

[boyce89976]

The most important thing in an CIEM is fit. Next to fit is the tuning, and matching that tuning to your specific use case, or preference. I've used cheap IEMs, worked at a company that built bluetooth headsets, and have used mid-tier and high-end CIEM's. The latest generation of inexpensive universals are a very good value. The reason to go to customs is isolation... in order to hear the detail on stage, you need to isolate yourself from the stage noise. My current CIEM is 64Audio's A12t. I chose them for their neutral sound signature and use them onstage for guitar and for mixing.

 

[Mr.Shred]

Thanks to all of you for your comments and sharing your real world experiences.

Here is mine so far.
My son who plays guitar, drums and bass purchased some Alclair's about 10 years ago. He really liked them
So I went into this saying lets do it right. About 4 years ago I had custom molds made for triple driver Alclair's.

When I received them I was not impressed with the sound at all, quite disappointed really. I had invested about $600 for these.
Shortly there after, someone recommended the KZ ZS10's at about $45.
Right away I thought the ZS10's sounded a lot better, and I started using them.

Someone recommended the Comply Memory Foam tips.
They are super comfortable, stay put and block out ambient noise.
I would not use the ZS10's without those tips.

Some things to keep in mind. There is a learning curve going from a 4x12 to IEM.
Add to that learning to mix the band with my own personal IEM mixer.
Trying to adjust hearing my guitar, like I really had never heard it before.

Fast forward to this week. Over the years I heard some people say the the ZS10's are harsh sounding.
I did think they were fairly bright, And I would slightly reduce the treble at the IEM mixer.

I was listening to the Steely Dan CD, Aja for reference music.
I noticed if I moved the ZS10's, I could rotate them to where the bass became nice and full and the treble was not as prominent.
I was surprised by this discovery. I have tried several different sizes and shapes of the Comply tips trying to get the best feel and sound.
No matter what I do, I can't get the ZS10's to sit in my ear canal, so the sound is balanced. It took me 4 years to stumble upon this.

I shared this story with a trusted musician and he said, how about A/B the ZS10's to the Alclair's again just for grins.
Results...

The Alclair sound more flat, which is okay. I can listen to the music at a louder volume with more comfort, that the ZS10's.
And with this test I do see/hear how the ZS10's are a bit harsh.
The Alclair sound their best when I keep very slight pressure to hold the bud into my ear. The bass gets nice and full.
One other thing I can add, I ordered some Shure SE215 ($100) to try. I found no real difference between them and the ZS10's.

All that to say I have 4+ years playing live with them. I'm trying to understand if there is a middle ground for cost, as I already spent $600 on the first custom molds.

Has anyone had any experience where the buds don't seem fit for optimal tone/sound?
How did you resolve this?
Thank you all!

I don’t miss my 4x12 at all. My In Ears are so 3D sounding that they put a smile on my face every single time I use them.
The thing is that every inner ear are different and that‘s why custom molded In Ears are so important.
All I can say is that my In Ears were the best Investment besides my Fractal gear.

 

[OrganicZed]

And with this test I do see/hear how the ZS10's are a bit harsh.

That has been my assessment of them as well. They have a very forward high end that is aggressive and sounds unpleasant when turned up. For the price they are quite good, but not actually good when compared to a more refined IEM.

The Alclair sound their best when I keep very slight pressure to hold the bud into my ear. The bass gets nice and full.

Has anyone had any experience where the buds don't seem fit for optimal tone/sound?
How did you resolve this?
Thank you all!

I have a few thoughts. Firstly, the human ear continues to change through the entire lifespan. A custom mold that fit perfectly several years ago may not fit properly today. 64 Audio digitizes the foam ear impressions that you send to them and they keep those scans on file but they won't make a new set of IEMs with impressions that were done more than two years prior.

Have you contacted Alclair? Some companies offer to do fit adjustments or even to re-house old IEMs for an improved fit.

 

[BBN]

@BBN I would really appreciate if you could share which models you tried from Amazon.

I tried the KZ-ZS10s, Linsoul Kiwi Cadenza and CCA C12s.
Most folks like the CCA C12s the best (that have tried the same ones).
I liked the Kiwi Cadenza because they fit my ears better (and were less bulky).

I would highly recommend trying SpinFit CP240 Double Flange tips for any of the IEMs above.
They made the IEM stay in my ear much better. Give them a try, they're worth the couple of bucks.

 

[BBN]

One thing that frosts me about IEMs is that if i put a ton of money into them and my own little world sounds great, nobody else hears that unless they do the same. Also weird for jams, or you or others sitting in. They're really best for a consistent band or other show arrangement, not a more fluid musical life.

This is VERY true. Using them for a jam - no way.
I use them for my multiple bands that are always in 'execution' mode.
We know our tunes and we are simply trying to hear the best mix of the band we can, so we can perform the best we can.
IEMs certainly disconnect you from the crowd (a little), and from other musicians....UNLESS you are playing a well rehearsed set. In the cases where you are well rehearsed (at least for me), the IEMs allow you to kind of sit back and appreciate your mix, and perform your best.

 

[Dave Merrill]

This is VERY true. Using them for a jam - no way.
I use them for my multiple bands that are always in 'execution' mode.
We know our tunes and we are simply trying to hear the best mix of the band we can, so we can perform the best we can.
IEMs certainly disconnect you from the crowd (a little), and from other musicians....UNLESS you are playing a well rehearsed set. In the cases where you are well rehearsed (at least for me), the IEMs allow you to kind of sit back and appreciate your mix, and perform your best.

I could see using IEMs jamming with people IF...

• Everyone is using then
• Each person can control their own mix in some way that doesn't suck
• Nobody's insanely loud in the room; ideally we're all silent, but drums are hard

Still though, it seems like the whole experience would be less shared, in the sense that we're all hearing different things.

Maybe. Might also be much more intimate, which i consider a good thing.

And nobody hears the same thing live in the room either, depending on where you're standing.

Luckily maybe, i don't have to actually figure this out, because I'm not planning on dropping $2k on them, and I'm not playing with other people, though i hope to change that at some point.

 

[scottp]

That has been my assessment of them as well. They have a very forward high end that is aggressive and sounds unpleasant when turned up. For the price they are quite good, but not actually good when compared to a more refined IEM.



I have a few thoughts. Firstly, the human ear continues to change through the entire lifespan. A custom mold that fit perfectly several years ago may not fit properly today. 64 Audio digitizes the foam ear impressions that you send to them and they keep those scans on file but they won't make a new set of IEMs with impressions that were done more than two years prior.

Have you contacted Alclair? Some companies offer to do fit adjustments or even to re-house old IEMs for an improved fit.

Good point on the change through lifespan! Since I am at the mid point of this journey, I have not yet contacted Alclair.
There were some other good suggestions I'll be checking out and report back in the next few days. Thanks!!

 

[scottp]

I tried the KZ-ZS10s, Linsoul Kiwi Cadenza and CCA C12s.
Most folks like the CCA C12s the best (that have tried the same ones).
I liked the Kiwi Cadenza because they fit my ears better (and were less bulky).

I would highly recommend trying SpinFit CP240 Double Flange tips for any of the IEMs above.
They made the IEM stay in my ear much better. Give them a try, they're worth the couple of bucks.

Thanks! I have an order coming from Amazon. This way I can compare tips and 4 to 5 different IEM.
I had never heard anyone mention SpinFit. I'll have them tomorrow to try.

 

[BBN]

Thanks! I have an order coming from Amazon. This way I can compare tips and 4 to 5 different IEM.
I had never heard anyone mention SpinFit. I'll have them tomorrow to try.

When you get the spin fits, put one on one ear (bud) and a soft tip on the other ear bud.
I noticed a big difference in seal and external noise reduction.

 

[marsonic]

Perhaps relevant....



Yes, "audiophile" reviewers and this type of measurement should each be taken with a grain of salt....measuring IEMs, especially, is a bit of an open question rightnow.

But....it could be useful/interesting for people who have a set of IEMs and want to get some kind of idea about how some other set is likely to sound.

Anyway...based on the specific things I've tried, I'm convinced that with IEMs, price is largely just a number. There are $50 IEMs that I would pick over $600 IEMs, hands down, for any application. I'm also not convinced that customs are actually worth it based on my experience with custom earplugs. Sadly, those earplugs would work fine or not at all based on things like hydration, ambient temperature, etc.. I've also determined that I prefer comply foam tips on everything.

Sadly....my first little experiment with it makes me really want to try a pair of DCA Stealth.

 

[BBN]

Perhaps relevant....


I'm also not convinced that customs are actually worth it based on my experience with custom earplugs. Sadly, those earplugs would work fine or not at all based on things like hydration, ambient temperature, etc.. I've also determined that I prefer comply foam tips on everything.

I was REALLY nervous about getting custom IEMs because it seems like a total risk as far as fitment goes.
I also got a pair of Westone custom molded ear plugs years back, and they sucked. Total waste.

This past year I decided to look into all of this again. 64 Audio gets a lot of positive press, so I looked into theirs. The 'pressure release' technology is what really sold me. That said, I still was nervous about doing molds, and having them not be great. I almost was going to get their molded ear plugs first, just to see how they fit....before spending the money on the IEMs. But the molded ear plugs were damn expensive as well.
So I decided I was just going to go for it.

I found an audiologist in my area and set an appointment, and of course brought the 64 audio instruction sheet. They were very specific about using a 1" bite block (which you can also just use 2 fingers). I had the molds done and then (per 64 audio's purchase process), I sent them pictures of my molds. They pointed out a tiny flaw on one of the molds (by looking at the pictures), so I went back and had it re-done. I sent the molds to 64 audio after they approved they were 'good', via pictures. A month later - my molds arrive. Still having anxiety after dropping $2k on these....I put them in. Perfect fit. These things fit my ears like nothing else. I keep them in even when I'm off stage because they are also incredible ear plugs.

I was skeptical, but my experience was a great one.

 

[scottp]

Well I received the order with the new gear to try.
I got Linsoul Kiwi Cadenza and CCA C12s, and the SpinFit CP240 Double Flange tips.

Keep in mind I am used to using the Comply Memory foam tips.

I first tried the Kiwi with the Spinfit tips. To me they sounded the thinnest, least desirable sound.
I tried a couple different variation Comply tips. That helped but only slightly.

Next was the CCA C12s. Trying again the SpinFit tips. For whatever reason the SpinFit don't seem to do anything different that the stock silicone tips. I bought both Medium and Large in case there was a difference for my ear, but the mediums felt like they were fitting good.
I noticed a couple differences between the ZS10's and CCA's. The CCA is a lighter IEM and the nozzle (the part that goes in the ear) is at a different angle than the ZS10, which I was glad to see.
I put a few different Comply tips on the CCA C12s and got good results.
The bass is right where it should be and the treble is not as prominent as in the ZS10s.

I went back after a while and performed these tests a second time, and got the same results.
I going to keep the CCA 12s and give the a long term shot as an inexpensive IEM using the Comply tips.

I took my Alclairs to rehearsal last night and they did pretty good. I did find better instrument separation and WAY less treble than the ZS10s.
I found myself wanting to turn up the treble at my IEM mixer, but that is most likely because I'm so used to the brightness on the ZS10s.

 

[marsonic]

I was REALLY nervous about getting custom IEMs because it seems like a total risk as far as fitment goes.
I also got a pair of Westone custom molded ear plugs years back, and they sucked. Total waste.

This past year I decided to look into all of this again. 64 Audio gets a lot of positive press, so I looked into theirs. The 'pressure release' technology is what really sold me. That said, I still was nervous about doing molds, and having them not be great. I almost was going to get their molded ear plugs first, just to see how they fit....before spending the money on the IEMs. But the molded ear plugs were damn expensive as well.
So I decided I was just going to go for it.

I found an audiologist in my area and set an appointment, and of course brought the 64 audio instruction sheet. They were very specific about using a 1" bite block (which you can also just use 2 fingers). I had the molds done and then (per 64 audio's purchase process), I sent them pictures of my molds. They pointed out a tiny flaw on one of the molds (by looking at the pictures), so I went back and had it re-done. I sent the molds to 64 audio after they approved they were 'good', via pictures. A month later - my molds arrive. Still having anxiety after dropping $2k on these....I put them in. Perfect fit. These things fit my ears like nothing else. I keep them in even when I'm off stage because they are also incredible ear plugs.

I was skeptical, but my experience was a great one.

I'm really glad to hear that. My Audiologist does offer the service, and I've thought about trying again. The fit guarantee would ease my mind a bit, but not being able to hear them first does not.

Did you talk to them about how you wanted them to sound, and/or do you know if they're capable of tuning the audio as well? (no offense, but whether you like the sound doesn't really matter to me - it's entirely possible that we like different eq curves).

I'm also thrilled with my IEMs and Comply foam. Like I said, I really want to try a pair of DCA Stealth (obviously not for stage use), but I'd rather spend $4500 on headphones I can return than $2000ish IEMs that I can't.

I tried a couple different variation Comply tips. That helped but only slightly.

How are you putting them in?

You can't just stick them in your ear and expect them to work...that flat-out doesn't work with foam tips other than the ones for AirPods (because they're so short/slim). You have to roll/compress them a bit and hold them in while the foam expands.

@Dave Merrill - honestly curious why the sad face.

 

[AlGrenadine]

I could see using IEMs jamming with people IF...

• Everyone is using then
• Each person can control their own mix in some way that doesn't suck
• Nobody's insanely loud in the room; ideally we're all silent, but drums are hard

Still though, it seems like the whole experience would be less shared, in the sense that we're all hearing different things.

Maybe. Might also be much more intimate, which i consider a good thing.

And nobody hears the same thing live in the room either, depending on where you're standing.

Luckily maybe, i don't have to actually figure this out, because I'm not planning on dropping $2k on them, and I'm not playing with other people, though i hope to change that at some point.

I use shure se215 for jamming because my drummer is really loud (even with no mics on his drums). And i had to add these things to isolate more from the direct sound :
https://www.shure.com/fr-FR/produits/accessoires/eatfl1-6?variant=EATFL1-6

I'm now very comfortable, and can ear my play clearly. I even use these iems to setup my sound at home before rehearsals

 

[Dave Merrill]

@Dave Merrill - honestly curious why the sad face.

Because they're SO flipping expensive, it's sad to want them!

I'm mostly kidding, but kinda not.

 

[BBN]

I'm really glad to hear that. My Audiologist does offer the service, and I've thought about trying again. The fit guarantee would ease my mind a bit, but not being able to hear them first does not.

Did you talk to them about how you wanted them to sound, and/or do you know if they're capable of tuning the audio as well? (no offense, but whether you like the sound doesn't really matter to me - it's entirely possible that we like different eq curves).

I'm also thrilled with my IEMs and Comply foam. Like I said, I really want to try a pair of DCA Stealth (obviously not for stage use), but I'd rather spend $4500 on headphones I can return than $2000ish IEMs that I can't.



How are you putting them in?

You can't just stick them in your ear and expect them to work...that flat-out doesn't work with foam tips other than the ones for AirPods (because they're so short/slim). You have to roll/compress them a bit and hold them in while the foam expands.

@Dave Merrill - honestly curious why the sad face.

It's a good question - I had zero input on tuning the IEMs and I'm not sure that's even a thing (with 64 audio)
Instead, I just went with their expensive 12 driver version because they said they are studio quality.
I originally ordered the A6 model, but called them after mailing the molds and talk about the A12s....and upgraded my order.
I was also thinking that I'd be bummed if I spent 1500 on the A6 and thought they were just 'decent'. I figured, another 500 bucks and get one of their top of the line models....buy once, cry once.

I also have the ability to Eq the signal to my IEMs, but find I don't need to. I imagine having an Eq available would really help almost any IEM buds.
Here's what I can say - until using the A12 IEMs, I never appreciated how amazing the Fractal reverbs are. The depth and quality of Fractal reverb on my voice, almost makes me be able to tolerate myself...lol.
Most of us have had that experience where you plug your Fractal into something (like a new or expensive monitor) and are like - WOW, that sounds amazing....now I can really hear the quality of the Fractal. I had that experience when using these IEMs. Even my guitar - the low end cabinet bounce when doing palm muting...that kind of stuff is like - oh hell yeah.

 

[scottp]

I'm really glad to hear that. My Audiologist does offer the service, and I've thought about trying again. The fit guarantee would ease my mind a bit, but not being able to hear them first does not.

Did you talk to them about how you wanted them to sound, and/or do you know if they're capable of tuning the audio as well? (no offense, but whether you like the sound doesn't really matter to me - it's entirely possible that we like different eq curves).

I'm also thrilled with my IEMs and Comply foam. Like I said, I really want to try a pair of DCA Stealth (obviously not for stage use), but I'd rather spend $4500 on headphones I can return than $2000ish IEMs that I can't.



How are you putting them in?

You can't just stick them in your ear and expect them to work...that flat-out doesn't work with foam tips other than the ones for AirPods (because they're so short/slim). You have to roll/compress them a bit and hold them in while the foam expands.

@Dave Merrill - honestly curious why the sad face.

I have been using the Comply Memory Foam Tips for 4 years. I know how to put them in. Thanks.
I LOVE them, Those tips are my favorite.