Headless anyone?

[unscarred]

I'm totally new to headless guitars... and got major sticker shock when I looked for a used Strandberg ... I found several used copies in the cdn$400 range, but they may be absolute crap. Since I'm just wanting to discover these, a small initial investment is my first goal.

Are there any decent yet affordable brands/models that would be an ok "first headless"?

Look into GOC guitars, i like ‘em better than the strandberg i had. Their QC is very good since they don’t make a boat load of them, and they release in batches. So u gotta keep an eye for their release announcement coz they don’t last long.

 

[Chromatizm]

I've been wondering whether raising up my playing position would help

Definitely yes, it basically saved my playing. But you need to be careful with how you sit, as Andy mentioned. Though "classical" position in his images is not the best option THB, you DON'T want to raise left hip.
See images here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...to-sitting-harder-to-play.205112/post-2558069

 

[Andy Eagle]

Definitely yes, it basically saved my playing. But you need to be careful with how you sit, as Andy mentioned. Though "classical" position in his images is not the best option THB, you DON'T want to raise left hip.
See images here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...to-sitting-harder-to-play.205112/post-2558069

Why is this better than classical position?

 

[Chromatizm]

Why is this better than classical position?

You'll sit in perfectly relaxed position. Body is straight, shoulders relaxed, legs in same position 90 degrees (ideally, if the chair is right). Basically, the main idea is have zero twists in body, legs or not. Especially for the long practice sessions.
It also allows top part of the body move more freely if needed, like sitting more comfortably with the high back of the chair.
And last but not least, when putting a guitar on the left leg like this, it is far from the "standing" position than if a person uses headless properly or normal guitar with support.

If you look closely, the guy in your image is actually twisted left a bit. That what happens when you need to balance a guitar in this position without a pillow or support. His right leg had also works like a counterbalance instead of standing on the floor, relaxed. He's body actually working even if doesn't seem like this from the first glance.

 

[Andy Eagle]

You'll sit in perfectly relaxed position. Body is straight, shoulders relaxed, legs in same position 90 degrees (ideally, if the chair is right). Basically, the main idea is have zero twists in body, legs or not. Especially for the long practice sessions.
It also allows top part of the body move more freely if needed, like sitting more comfortably with the high back of the chair.
And last but not least, when putting a guitar on the left leg like this, it is far from the "standing" position than if a person uses headless properly or normal guitar with support.

If you look closely, the guy in your image is actually twisted left a bit. That what happens when you need to balance a guitar in this position without a pillow or support. His right leg had also works like a counterbalance instead of standing on the floor, relaxed. He's body actually working even if doesn't seem like this from the first glance.

This is why you have a foot rest.

 

[Chromatizm]

This is why you have a foot rest.

And he's still twisted.
Both legs on the ground is much more comfortable. And allows you more freedom in general than taking a foot support instead of that ugly clump on the guitar.

 

[pima1234]

And he's still twisted.
Both legs on the ground is much more comfortable. And allows you more freedom in general than taking a foot support instead of that ugly clump on the guitar.

Exactly. I switched over to a support for classical guitar back in grad school, the Murata, and it's still available through Strings By Mail. I like the Barnett (now Sage) magnetic support a lot, and still use it. The Performaxe is really good. I'm going to give the pillow thing another shot. And, for my guitars with strap buttons, I keep working on my strap position with the different guitars.

The one and only guitar that accomplishes this, out of all I've ever tried (that hasn't yet included a .strandberg or any based on that unique design), is the Forshage Orion. Yes, it's based on the Klein. It is perfect, hands-down, no question about it. I want to have another, very specific one built at some point.

Folks, this idea of position is huge. And yes, you do want to make sure that both legs can be flat on the floor. That being said, trying to keep your core muscles in at least some semblance of shape helps a lot with everything. The same is said when I get back on my bicycle. Core is everything. I'm terrible at it. A weak core is partly genetic in my family, so I have to put some effort in to not let it go.

The chair matters a lot. The Roc n Soc is just fine, and it also serves as my desk chair. It's held up for a very long time now.

Tune in next week for more...

 

[Dave Merrill]

It weirds me out that I've been playing for so long with no issues, then suddenly i need to pay a whole other level of attention to things i didn't even think about. Welcome to getting older, i suppose.

 

[pima1234]

It weirds me out that I've been playing for so long with no issues, then suddenly i need to pay a whole other level of attention to things i didn't even think about. Welcome to getting older, i suppose.

Same. My issues started back in grad school, with constant playing and practicing, and then teaching on top of it.

 

[Deleted member 86104]

My Boden Metal NX 8 is currently my only and possibly my last electric guitar, unless I ever manage the money for an Aristides 9, or if Strandberg ever makes a 9-string variant of this model.

 

[fuzzyoctaves]

I guess I'll be the first to post a Kiesel...

I had a Strandberg and I generally liked it, but there were things that turned me off enough to roll the dice on a custom Kiesel.

I didn't like the strandberg's total lack of forearm comfort. I didn't like being stuck with a similar shitty control layout as a Strat. I didn't like that the few choices with HSS tended to be heavier. I would have dealt with all of that, but the damn trem bridge SUCKS! It is so uncomfortable because it looks to be designed for both Righties and Lefties with a hard edged lump under my wrist.

I loved how light the Strandberg was (4lbs 13oz) because I never ever play sitting and I spend a lot of time in the studio with a guitar around my shoulders.

The other thing I realized is that, in general, tuning with a trem on a headless guitar is a PITA because you end up altering pitch when you are adjusting the tuners (which are already a pain compared to a headed guitar).

So I bought an Osiris:

• Chambered roasted swamp ash body with a flamed redwood top
• Roasted maple neck with a royal ebony board and abalone inlays
• I had them change out the blade for a PRS style rotary selector and move all controls toward the bottom of the guitar to ensure they are always outta my way
• Weight: 5lbs 2oz

The build quality is flawless and it has so much resonance and natural sustain. Color me impressed with Kiesel.

 

[Chromatizm]

Osiris

Beautiful guitar. I wanted to swap *S. to Osiris, but it's not ergonomic, just headless. As I play sitting 90% of time, it's a dealbreaker.

 

[fuzzyoctaves]

Beautiful guitar. I wanted to swap *S. to Osiris, but it's not ergonomic, just headless. As I play sitting 90% of time, it's a dealbreaker.

IMO, "ergonomic" is in the hands of the wielder (eye of the beholder, etc...). As I play standing 99% of the time, weight is the #1 most important ergonomic factor. Whereas it seems like you could play a heavier guitar without impacting your model of "ergonomic." Good news for you: that opens up a huge range of guitars (In my experience, the vast majority of guitars are 8lbs+). Given that, I wonder why headless is a consideration for you - is it ease of travel?

For me, headless is about light weight and travel. If it weren't for those factors, I would skip the "fringe" world of headless.

I will say that this Osiris is more generally ergonomic than the Strandberg I had even though it is 7oz heavier. The main factors being forearm comfort (which is still not as perfect as a strat, but much better than the S), bridge comfort, but I am comparing S with trem to a fixed bridge so that's not really fair. At the end of the day, I have realized that a headless guitar and a trem just don't mix well anyway due to tuning issues, but the S trem sucks ergonimically because of the way it is designed to be either rightie or a leftie. And, finally, Kiesel lets me move the dumb control locations. (note that I didn't bring up the S neck - I actually kinda liked it, but I wasn't sad to see it go either)

 

[Chromatizm]

IMO, "ergonomic" is in the hands of the wielder (eye of the beholder, etc...).

I don't think I can agree with this... The weight IS the important consideration - no questions. As mentioned, EART was sold cause it had "normal" weight instead of ~2,5Kg of *S., which I felt uncomfortable when both standing and sitting. So for the player who performs almost exclusively standing sure, it equals ergonomic. But this is probably what, 1% of all guitarists? I'd argue less than that!

Given that, I wonder why headless is a consideration for you - is it ease of travel?

I'm playing sitting most of the time, like 95% of time or even more, like this:

What do I get:
1. Exactly same guitar-to-body position when both sitting and standing - saves a lot of practice time!
2. Perfectly straight, "normal" body position, never twisted as it would in "rock-n-roll" position or even with a normal guitar positioned as in a picture. And if I want to change a position with this guitar, like sit in a deep soft couch or high bar stool, it's still WAY more comfortable than a guitar with "usual" body contour. Well, the image above says it all, actually. He sits so comfortably like there is no guitar at all.
3. Left hand position is in much more "normal" position and less twisted than if you'd put K in same position against your body. Same goes for right hand, it's more relaxed cause it's lower than with usual guitar in same position.
4. I never afraid of kicking someone in a face with headstock in small bars Did that a few times - still sorry for the boys :/ Kids don't afraid to approach me from the left side either
5. It's very comfortable to sit like that in front of the computer. I'm typing this while sitting in "ideal", i.e. recommended body position against the table and a computer, and my guitar sits comfortable on my left lap. I never have to pull it down - NEVER. This alone makes it worth it's price, TBH. Normal guitars would not allow you to work with keyboard for extended periods of time without the need to put it down or twist your body to keep it from falling forward or to the sides. I can keep playing it while I think what to type next or waiting for someone to answer or whatever, you got the idea.

So this is my definition of ergonomic. Again, I agree about the weight, but *S is already significantly lighter than my cheap Peavey strat or gold top Gibson which can be used in a gym for powerlift training.

This said, I don't like *S right hand support either! But because of it's body contour, I can push the neck slightly forward when sitting, which makes left hand position even more comfortable, and mitigates the lack of right hand support almost completely. I realized it is so comfortable that I tend to do it while playing standing too.

And, finally, Kiesel lets me move the dumb control locations

I moved volume knob to the tone knob position and removed tone control at all I also reversed the pickups switch because I usually use neck pickup. Now that it is in the lowest position, I rarely kick it
You can see it in the image above.

didn't bring up the S neck - I actually kinda liked it, but I wasn't sad to see it go either)

I don't really care about their neck either. And don't get me started how bad their neck-to-body joint and access to the high frets!!!

 

[Andy Eagle]

Ergonomics is not a matter of opinion but it is affected by the physical attributes of the individual.

 

[fuzzyoctaves]

Ergonomics is not a matter of opinion but it is affected by the physical attributes of the individual.

Yes and, I would add that Ergonomics is also tied to the use case. For example: sitting vs. standing.

So for the player who performs almost exclusively standing sure, it equals ergonomic. But this is probably what, 1% of all guitarists? I'd argue less than that!

I have not much perspective on what the rest of guitar players do, but I kinda doubt your number here. I am sure it is genre specific, but in the rock(ish) world, no one is sitting down to play at band practice or for a show. From the perspective of ergonomics, sitting itself is terribly unergonomic for me and I don't think I am alone in that. "Sitting is the new smoking" is a fairly common refrain these days as people age into dysfunctional bodies created by way too much sitting. (this is just my personal perspective here - not advice)

It's very comfortable to sit like that in front of the computer. I'm typing this while sitting in "ideal", i.e. recommended body position against the table and a computer, and my guitar sits comfortable on my left lap. I never have to pull it down - NEVER. This alone makes it worth it's price, TBH. Normal guitars would not allow you to work with keyboard for extended periods of time without the need to put it down or twist your body to keep it from falling forward or to the sides. I can keep playing it while I think what to type next or waiting for someone to answer or whatever, you got the idea.

Interesting. The ability to work on my computer while I have a guitar strapped on is essential. I have my laptop on a stand that is just at eye level and there is plenty of room for my guitar to swing around without knocking into a desk. How do you avoid hitting the desk in your sitting scenario?

 

[Chromatizm]

sitting itself is terribly unergonomic for me

Exactly.
.S*-type body guitar change that completely! It's not "sitting with the guitar" anymore, it's simply sitting. Like you sit when you eat or else.

How do you avoid hitting the desk in your sitting scenario?

It just never happens if the guitar is on the lap like in the image above. And I never remove strap either, so it's completely safe.