Moving to fractal from helix, need help!


This is a true story. I have played with a friend who has had the Helix 5 years. When I bought a
Fractal and started to take it to rehearsal he started to get increasingly louder with his Helix to
the point that I felt like he was overcompensating for the inferior tones he was getting. He never
told me that, though. Then yesterday we spoke on the phone and he admitted that when I brought
out the Fractal he thought it sounded amazing, and that he is now on the FM9 waitlist and his wife
is pissed at me for all of this. :)

So when I saw your post today it made me chuckle and wonder if it was him. Even though I knew
it wasn't.
 
I spoke to Pete from this forum earlier and that was basically our summary too.
I think it's inevitable I will try the fm3 fairly soon, unless someone can show me how to get just as good high gain out of helix..
Have you tried 3rd party IRs? That's often a missing ingredient for Line 6 users.
 
Probably a very accurate summary. Just out of interest, when you say it is possible to coax a great sound out of the Helix, and bearing in mind my particular requirement, can you suggest a method or road map to do it? After years of trying I would be annoyed to think it was possible, but I feel like I've exhausted all the options

Honestly, I think I'm probably at the same place with the Helix as you are. I've heard tons of clips with it that sound really good, but have always struggled to get there myself. I think that the biggest hurdle is that the stock settings for most amps are already in serious need of deep diving to get them even in the ballpark before the final tweaking to taste, and with the FM3 the stock settings are already right on the money.
 
What's up with the multiple Helix Bros in this thread??? ;)



It's almost like you are talking the OP into making the Helix work, when
he has said he has tried for years, and out of purchasing a Fractal.

Am I on the wrong forum or something, and don't even know it??
 
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Honestly, I think I'm probably at the same place with the Helix as you are. I've heard tons of clips with it that sound really good, but have always struggled to get there myself. I think that the biggest hurdle is that the stock settings for most amps are already in serious need of deep diving to get them even in the ballpark before the final tweaking to taste, and with the FM3 the stock settings are already right on the money.
Got to thank the guys at Fractal for this. I've never seen a group of guys continuously put so much time and effort into a product. Especially after it's initial release. Not to mention the enthusiasm they have for continuous improvement. There are many reasons Fractal is king of the mountain.
 
Yep literally done all of that. I think the Helix does a lot of things well but I'm still not convinced on the high gain stuff. Yes it does it but I've never been happy with it and it's a very specific thing for me, it's why I bought the unit in the first place. It's interesting that you put them on a par, but there are a lot of others putting fractal noticeably above the Helix, and the ultimate reference of course are the pros who all use Fractal now, there has to be reason for that.

You might be right about the output. I got the alto speakers because they were recommended on the Helix forum at the time. I have considered changing those too but I just find it hard to believe that would change the type of distortion I'm getting from my tones.

The high gain stuff on the Helix tends to be fizzy and artificial sounding. You can't really add much base because then it gets boomy. From what I've heard so far, the fractal does sound a lot more like a real amp
I can only relay my own experience with the two. I've tried them through all kinds of setups at various volume levels:
  • Helix preamps into Bogner and Victory tube amps' fx returns.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into a Fryette Power Station 100 and real guitar cabs.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into the BluGuitar Amp 1 fx return and real guitar cabs.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into computer and VST plugins (cab sims etc).
  • Helix and FM3 into Genelec M040 studio monitors.
  • Helix and FM3 into Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250 ohm and Sennheiser HD6XX 300 ohm headphones.
  • Helix and FM3 into PA/FRFR speakers.
All of these setups will sound different and respond in a different way no matter which modeler is in use. At low volume I like the studio monitors the best and at higher volume the PS-100 and guitar cabs is probably the most satisfying. Headphones need both frequency correction and room reverb to sound natural and are probably the worst option but sometimes a necessary one.

Many pros who use Fractal use it for effects. Fractal has better modulation and reverb effects than the Helix. No contest there.

I don't agree about "fizzy and artificial". Or boomy for that matter. Many of these aspects will depend on the room and your output system. For example there's a big 130 Hz boost in the room I play in at home so I use global EQ to dial that out or else some notes will sound boomy. Likewise placement of speakers and if they emphasize low end will matter.

I don't do anything particularly special with my presets. I mostly use ML Sound Lab multi-mic IR mixes exported from the MIKKO cab sim plugin if I am using IRs but you might use something from say York Audio just as well. I add some low cut usually around 80-100 Hz, high cut to taste. The cab or IR block low cut is very helpful for avoiding any boominess. I don't like many of the default settings on Helix amp models so I dial my own. For high gain tones I often reduce sag a bit from the default setting to tighten up the feel. I might use a graphic or parametric EQ either in front or after the amp to tweak things a bit more.

My experience is that Fractal modeling is not in some sort of different echelon from the competition. There's plenty of videos you can find on YT where people have dialed various modelers to sound very very close regardless of what genre of music is being played. That aligns with my own experience. Using the same IRs will give you very similar results. If we were to compare with their respective cab sims then I would prefer Fractal because its vast IR library is just plain better than Helix's stock cab sims.

When comparing it's also important to pick a reference tone. It can be a real amp or whichever modeler's dialed in tone you prefer. Then you figure out how to make them sound and feel the same. Putting in the same values for knobs does not work. It's also useful to use a decibel meter to make sure what you are hearing is coming out at the same volume because usually we hear louder as better. That alone probably accounts for a lot of the "X sounds so much better than Y" hyperbole we read on the internet.

Note that I am not trying to put down Fractal here. It sounds stellar and has a huge feature set. But I feel that the Helix amp modeling is not the aspect that is holding your tones back.
 
Got to thank the guys at Fractal for this. I've never seen a group of guys continuously put so much time and effort into a product. Especially after it's initial release. Not to mention the enthusiasm they have for continuous improvement. There are many reasons Fractal is king of the mountain.

I think the Line6 guys are pretty enthusiastic about all things digital, too, and always quick to offer praise for new things their competitors come out with. They tend to look at it as all of the digital guys being on the same team overall, where any win for modeling is a win for everybody regardless of which company achieved it. I just don't get along too well with their products!
 
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I think the Line6 guys are pretty enthusiastic about all things digital, too, and always quick to offer praise for new things their competitors come out with. They tend to look at it as all of the digital guys being on the same team overall, where any win for modeling is a win for everybody regardless of which company achieved it. I just don't get along too well with their products!
I think Mr. Chase is on a whole different level. I mean when the creator comes on the forum and says (I'm paraphrasing) he's had an epiphany in the middle of the night and can't wait to share an update with the community of product owners ...man that's a pretty special type of relationship for a multi effects developer/creator to have with people that have bought his product. Do the Yamaha guys do that? Idk. Can you directly ask the Yamaha guys a question and have an in depth conversation with them within hours? Idk.

Idk cuz I also do not get along with their products. Owned an HD500 for a couple days and traded it for a cell phone. Lol
 
Just a thought that hasn't been mentioned. You've mentioned going FM3 + FC6. Before you purchase an FC6, are you aware of the use of stand in switches? You can utilize a stand in switch (I use two Boss FS-5Us) to function just like a regular switch. So for a much cheaper option (and less space) I have five available switches.

That might save you some $ and hassle if you go FM3 and then migrate to FM9. Or might just be a great option with the FM3 in general depending on your preferences.
 
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I think Mr. Chase is on a whole different level. I mean when the creator comes on the forum and says (I'm paraphrasing) he's had an epiphany in the middle of the night and can't wait to share an update with the community of product owners ...man that's a pretty special type of relationship for a multi effects developer/creator to have with people that have bought his product. Do the Yamaha guys do that? Idk. Can you directly ask the Yamaha guys a question and have an in depth conversation with them within hours? Idk.

Idk cuz I also do not get along with their products. Owned an HD500 for a couple days and traded it for a cell phone. Lol

Actually, the Line6 guys do interact quite a bit with their customers online, and are very responsive to requests. They're gear heads just like the rest of us, so in many ways it comes down to a "Ford versus Chevy" type of thing. Some folks are diehard Ford guys, some are Chevy guys, and some just plain love cars in general. I personally prefer the Fractal over the Helix by a wide (huge) margin, but I do still respect the Line6 guys for their enthusiasm towards digital gear in general.
 
I can only relay my own experience with the two. I've tried them through all kinds of setups at various volume levels:
  • Helix preamps into Bogner and Victory tube amps' fx returns.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into a Fryette Power Station 100 and real guitar cabs.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into the BluGuitar Amp 1 fx return and real guitar cabs.
  • Helix and FM3 amp models into computer and VST plugins (cab sims etc).
  • Helix and FM3 into Genelec M040 studio monitors.
  • Helix and FM3 into Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250 ohm and Sennheiser HD6XX 300 ohm headphones.
  • Helix and FM3 into PA/FRFR speakers.
All of these setups will sound different and respond in a different way no matter which modeler is in use. At low volume I like the studio monitors the best and at higher volume the PS-100 and guitar cabs is probably the most satisfying. Headphones need both frequency correction and room reverb to sound natural and are probably the worst option but sometimes a necessary one.

Many pros who use Fractal use it for effects. Fractal has better modulation and reverb effects than the Helix. No contest there.

I don't agree about "fizzy and artificial". Or boomy for that matter. Many of these aspects will depend on the room and your output system. For example there's a big 130 Hz boost in the room I play in at home so I use global EQ to dial that out or else some notes will sound boomy. Likewise placement of speakers and if they emphasize low end will matter.

I don't do anything particularly special with my presets. I mostly use ML Sound Lab multi-mic IR mixes exported from the MIKKO cab sim plugin if I am using IRs but you might use something from say York Audio just as well. I add some low cut usually around 80-100 Hz, high cut to taste. The cab or IR block low cut is very helpful for avoiding any boominess. I don't like many of the default settings on Helix amp models so I dial my own. For high gain tones I often reduce sag a bit from the default setting to tighten up the feel. I might use a graphic or parametric EQ either in front or after the amp to tweak things a bit more.

My experience is that Fractal modeling is not in some sort of different echelon from the competition. There's plenty of videos you can find on YT where people have dialed various modelers to sound very very close regardless of what genre of music is being played. That aligns with my own experience. Using the same IRs will give you very similar results. If we were to compare with their respective cab sims then I would prefer Fractal because its vast IR library is just plain better than Helix's stock cab sims.

When comparing it's also important to pick a reference tone. It can be a real amp or whichever modeler's dialed in tone you prefer. Then you figure out how to make them sound and feel the same. Putting in the same values for knobs does not work. It's also useful to use a decibel meter to make sure what you are hearing is coming out at the same volume because usually we hear louder as better. That alone probably accounts for a lot of the "X sounds so much better than Y" hyperbole we read on the internet.

Note that I am not trying to put down Fractal here. It sounds stellar and has a huge feature set. But I feel that the Helix amp modeling is not the aspect that is holding your tones back.
Each person's experience and conclusions drawn are what perpetuate the debate as to which is "better". Your experience and conclusions drawn has led to a place where you find great similarity between the two products. Others have had different experiences and drawn different conclusions.

My experience has been different than yours, as much as I may have wanted it not to be. That doesn't negate your experience nor do I believe that your conclusions are wrong. They are conclusions you've drawn based upon your experience. It doesn't make mine wrong either. Each of us has our own wants, needs and philosophies on tone. If the Helix and the FM3 check all of the boxes for you, great. If the Helix does and the FM3 doesn't or vice-versa. great. I'm not sure what there is to gain by trying to convince people who think differently that they have drawn the 'wrong' conclusion.
 
Actually, the Line6 guys do interact quite a bit with their customers online, and are very responsive to requests. They're gear heads just like the rest of us, so in many ways it comes down to a "Ford versus Chevy" type of thing. Some folks are diehard Ford guys, some are Chevy guys, and some just plain love cars in general. I personally prefer the Fractal over the Helix by a wide (huge) margin, but I do still respect the Line6 guys for their enthusiasm towards digital gear in general.
I was a die hard Ford mustang guy for decades. Then one day when shopping for a mach1 mustang the dealer talked me into test driving a 2004 Corvette. HOLY SH*T!!! Hit 90mph on the short on ramp to the interstate. Said to my old lady "Why in the HELL am I looking at mustangs?". Within 3 months I had two Corvettes sitting in the driveway. Lol

You only know what you know until try something different.

A year later I got the personal property bill and sold them both. Lol
 
I think Mr. Chase is on a whole different level. I mean when the creator comes on the forum and says (I'm paraphrasing) he's had an epiphany in the middle of the night and can't wait to share an update with the community of product owners...
Boy, that thread got some traction. Epiphany which later turned out to be Cygnus.
 
You only know what you know until try something different.

Precisely how I wound up with a Helix, and a Kemper, and a GT-1000, and a Digitech GSP1101. I've been chasing that "perfect" digital solution since the early '90s (still have my GSP 21 Legend!), and each unit has things that I really like and limitations that I have lived with.
 
This is a true story. I have played with a friend who has had the Helix 5 years. When I bought a
Fractal and started to take it to rehearsal he started to get increasingly louder with his Helix to
the point that I felt like he was overcompensating for the inferior tones he was getting. He never
told me that, though. Then yesterday we spoke on the phone and he admitted that when I brought
out the Fractal he thought it sounded amazing, and that he is now on the FM9 waitlist and his wife
is pissed at me for all of this. :)
As in the words of Paul Harvey, "Now you know the rest of the story."
 
Precisely how I wound up with a Helix, and a Kemper, and a GT-1000, and a Digitech GSP1101. I've been chasing that "perfect" digital solution since the early '90s (still have my GSP 21 Legend!), and each unit has things that I really like and limitations that I have lived with.
My first digitech was a dsp128 then a gsp5 😂
 
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