Tone versus Feel. The real amp in the room.

So if I move I can’t expect a similar experience? If I don”t I can’t either?

Bingo! That is what is missing from the Axe FX. The lowest of my real amps offers that.

You just acknowledged it.
I acknowledged that a real speaker cab is different than an IR?

This is well-known and documented. You didn’t like, reveal an industry secret or anything. I’ve been saying that in every post. A real amp, even the “lowest”, has a quality to the speaker due to physics.

From day 1, the Axe-Fx is known to create the tone of a mic’d guitar Amp, just as you’d listen to it from a control room.

As mentioned in this thread and hundreds of other threads on this same topic, to get the “real cab” feel, use a real cab. That’s it. Simple.

It’s no secret nor rocket science. All of this has been known and told since day 1.
 
I really don't want to dive into this can of worms... But I'm going to try to explain.

I think Chris and Jason have both given answers that makes sense, but you don't want to accept them.

When you listen to a guitar speaker in a room, that speaker produces many sound waves. Your listening position relative to the speaker(s), the walls, floor, ceiling, etc affects what you hear and how you hear it. The physical properties and dimensions of the room also affects how you perceive the sound.

When you mic a guitar speaker, the microphone is in a fixed position, (typically) very close to the speaker. The mic is not a human ear, and it responds differently and it is not hearing all those various reflections, etc. At least not the way your ear does.

When you play with a cabinet in the room, only YOU are hearing the sound as you hear it because nobody else can be in the same space you are positioned. The sound you've tweaked to perfection will sound different to somebody else (or even yourself) that's positioned elsewhere due to the physics of sound.

When you listen to a recording, or an amp modeler through a simulated mic'd speaker (an IR) you are hearing something very different.

This is why Jason keeps telling you to mic up your amp in another room and listen to it thru your monitors.

It's NEVER going to sound the same because these are two different things.
 
Agree with Chris. It is as simple as asking - 'How could one possibly make a room sound like it has a cab in the room, without a cab being in the room'.

It's easy to see that the only easy and practical way to pull that off is by putting a cab in the room. It is also totally easy and effective to do - you just need a cab and a room. When you decide you want to have the versatility of swapping IRs for different amp heads, then it gets a little more complicated - you need FRFR. A compromise might be an FRFR configured as a cab, and put that in a room. :)
 
I acknowledged that a real speaker cab is different than an IR?

This is well-known and documented. You didn’t like, reveal an industry secret or anything. I’ve been saying that in every post. A real amp, even the “lowest”, has a quality to the speaker due to physics.

From day 1, the Axe-Fx is known to create the tone of a mic’d guitar Amp, just as you’d listen to it from a control room.

As mentioned in this thread and hundreds of other threads on this same topic, to get the “real cab” feel, use a real cab. That’s it. Simple.

It’s no secret nor rocket science. All of this has been known and told since day 1.
I’m ready for the next level of modeling magic. Are you? Is your head in the right position?
 
Aside from the speaker, one big difference is that the direct sound from a cab is filtered through whatever mic you put in front of it, as well as its position.
 
I really don't want to dive into this can of worms... But I'm going to try to explain.

I think Chris and Jason have both given answers that makes sense, but you don't want to accept them.

When you listen to a guitar speaker in a room, that speaker produces many sound waves. Your listening position relative to the speaker(s), the walls, floor, ceiling, etc affects what you hear and how you hear it. The physical properties and dimensions of the room also affects how you perceive the sound.

When you mic a guitar speaker, the microphone is in a fixed position, (typically) very close to the speaker. The mic is not a human ear, and it responds differently and it is not hearing all those various reflections, etc. At least not the way your ear does.

When you play with a cabinet in the room, only YOU are hearing the sound as you hear it because nobody else can be in the same space you are positioned. The sound you've tweaked to perfection will sound different to somebody else (or even yourself) that's positioned elsewhere due to the physics of sound.

When you listen to a recording, or an amp modeler through a simulated mic'd speaker (an IR) you are hearing something very different.

This is why Jason keeps telling you to mic up your amp in another room and listen to it thru your monitors.

It's NEVER going to sound the same because these are two different things.
Well said. I think it can be done. Not long ago tube amps were unable to be modeled effectively and yet here we are. AI may be needed but certainly the idea that excellently modeled amps and cabs can be placed in a 3D acoustic space is going to come... it is not impossible to imagine. I have no idea why some argue that advancement is impossible.
 
I’m ready for the next level of modeling magic. Are you?
Saying this doesn’t mean it’s possible at this time. Saying this doesn’t mean people are avoiding doing it.

Again, you haven’t really discovered something new here.

And I unfortunately still think you’re missing the point of the reason it’s not happening right now.

Well said. I think it can be done. Not long ago tube amps were unable to be modeled effectively and yet here we are. AI may be needed but certainly the idea that excellently modeled amps and cabs can be placed in a 3D acoustic space is going to come... it is not impossible to imagine. I have no idea why some argue that advancement is impossible.

See, exactly this. You think just because it’s now being wished for, that it is possible.

If I say “I wish I could create drinking water out of thin air” that doesn’t make it possible suddenly.

You thinking it can be done without understanding the issue of why it can’t be done, and simply comparing it to “well amp modeling didn’t exist” doesn’t make this suddenly a possibility.

Reverb takes a lot of CPU to produce on any platform. In my estimation, this “cab in the room” thing would need 10x more CPU if not more, as well as special reproduction devices for the exact same sensation. It’s probably just not going to happen for consumer use.
 
Well said. I think it can be done. Not long ago tube amps were unable to be modeled effectively and yet here we are. AI may be needed but certainly the idea that excellently modeled amps and cabs can be placed in a 3D acoustic space is going to come... it is not impossible to imagine. I have no idea why some argue that advancement is impossible.
While I think it might be possible, at the very least I suspect it would require using headphones to hear properly, not speakers.

Additionally, I think it would likely involve extremely complex capture and "playback" technology.
 
Saying this doesn’t mean it’s possible at this time. Saying this doesn’t mean people are avoiding doing it.

Again, you haven’t really discovered something new here.

And I unfortunately still think you’re missing the point of the reason it’s not happening right now.



See, exactly this. You think just because it’s now being wished for, that it is possible.

If I say “I wish I could create drinking water out of thin air” that doesn’t make it possible suddenly.

You thinking it can be done without understanding the issue of why it can’t be done, and simply comparing it to “well amp modeling didn’t exist” doesn’t make this suddenly a possibility.

Reverb takes a lot of CPU to produce on any platform. In my estimation, this “cab in the room” thing would need 10x more CPU if not more, as well as special reproduction devices for the exact same sensation. It’s probably just not going to happen for consumer use.
Chris,
I will say good day to you when this is all possible. The notion that AI, quantum computing and visionaries bringing them in to action may seem like impossible science fiction to you. I have been around long enough to know that current paradigms are simply a snapshot.
You are well versed in what is. Not so much in what could be.

We’ll see who is ultimately right. I hope at that moment you remember this conversation while you cling to your Axe FX III when the rest of us are playing on the Axe FX X. See you then amigo.

Jason
 
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While I think it might be possible, at the very least I suspect it would require using headphones to hear properly, not speakers.

Additionally, I think it would likely involve extremely complex capture and "playback" technology.
I think you are spot on with the headphones notion. Ideally ones with programmable profiles. Removing most variables would be sweet.
 
Fair enough. I felt criticized for asking and then being told why that ask was not possible.

Validating the request might help.
explaining facts is not criticizing. being wrong is also not the same as being criticized. physics are physics. when someone creates the next technology or CPU that allows even more computations per millisecond, we may get closer.
 
explaining facts is not criticizing. being wrong is also not the same as being criticized. physics are physics. when someone creates the next technology or CPU that allows even more computations per millisecond, we may get closer.
Physics are physics. That’s why we don’t have accurate tube simulations in the Axe FX III.

Give it a break. You were wrong here.
 
I have no idea what this means. But you’re still arguing so that’s cool.
It means that the physics of emulating tubes, once considered impossible, has been achieved. I think the next thing is achievable too.
While I ask about that next step, you seem to be compelled to tell me that it is not possible.

Am I missing something? Reread the thread.
 
It's still physics... One problem may just be more complex to solve than another, possibly by orders of magnitude.

This kind of tone isn't necessary.
It isn’t necessary but it may be called for when a sincere wish for the future that all can describe as desirable is dismissed... based on current possibilities. The next level will come
 
In my experience, far field IRs provide an adequate approximation of playing an amp in a room. I certainly feel more inspired when playing than when I used to use NF IRs.
 
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