Interesting discovery...

SteveW

SteveW

Experienced
I have an AX8 running through the FX return input on a Blackstar Club 40....and I have an AXE FX II XL+ running through a Matrix GT1000 and Mesa Traditional 4 x 12, each setup in a different location.

I have had the AXE FX setup for a year now and have become quite proficient at dialing in my presets and tones, but have found that each tone takes quite a bit of tweaking to get it more or less where I want.

Conversely...the AX8 through my Blackstar gets the tone using the factory stock presets, and most of the time, with no drive pedal. The difference is staggering to me...and I know it's not the AX8, but the amp.

I was able to dial in a Zepplin tone in about 2 minutes with my AX8 setup (Moby Dick) which I have never been able to get successfully using the AXE FX setup.

My tones are mostly metal FWIW...
 
Just for the heck of it, try the axe fx input that's in the rear and see if it behaves more like your AX8.

My XL+ sounds different than my AX8 running the exact same presets with the exact same settings. I do not have the answers but can share what I think may be the differences.

The XL+ has an impedance option on the front input, which I have altered. The AX8 does not have this feature.

Next, I don't know for sure, but heck if my XL+ doesn't sound like it has something going on by way of a light limiter or compressor or something. I can't put my finger on it, but there's some.sort of buffer or something to my ears. My XL+ is just tighter sounding.

My AX8 doesn't have that tightness. It also by default, has a little more of a treble.bite to it, which is what my XL+ sounds like when I use the rear input. I've also found that reducing the "definition" knob on my AX8 in the amp options by -3 put me closer to the warmth of my XL+.

Maybe some.of the above will help you. Metal tones here too by the way.

Good luck.

-Danny
 
Danny Danzi said:
Just for the heck of it, try the axe fx input that's in the rear and see if it behaves more like your AX8.

My XL+ sounds different than my AX8 running the exact same presets with the exact same settings. I do not have the answers but can share what I think may be the differences.

The XL+ has an impedance option on the front input, which I have altered. The AX8 does not have this feature.

Next, I don't know for sure, but heck if my XL+ doesn't sound like it has something going on by way of a light limiter or compressor or something. I can't put my finger on it, but there's some.sort of buffer or something to my ears. My XL+ is just tighter sounding.

My AX8 doesn't have that tightness. It also by default, has a little more of a treble.bite to it, which is what my XL+ sounds like when I use the rear input. I've also found that reducing the "definition" knob on my AX8 in the amp options by -3 put me closer to the warmth of my XL+.

Maybe some.of the above will help you. Metal tones here too by the way.

Good luck.

-Danny
Click to expand...
Thing with buffers is that the buffered signal should be brighter.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
Thing with buffers is that the buffered signal should be brighter.
Click to expand...

Actually, in my experience it's never been brighter. A buffered signal always chops off a bit of top end abrasiveness because it's basically like a light pre-amp to the amp signal which also compresses a little.

If this is indeed the case in the XL+ v.s. the AX8, it's understandable how it would stop the more apparent transients that get past the AX8 that aren't present in the XL+.

Again though, all speculation and personal experience on my part. Nothing truly factual. :)
 
As I understand it, you have options on XL+ of setting the input stereo or mono. If set to stereo, and only using one input, I believe you loose ~3 dB input gain. You guys usually know what you are doing, but it is something that have caused people to find tone differences between the two in the past.
 
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Danny Danzi said:
Actually, in my experience it's never been brighter. A buffered signal always chops off a bit of top end abrasiveness because it's basically like a light pre-amp to the amp signal which also compresses a little.

If this is indeed the case in the XL+ v.s. the AX8, it's understandable how it would stop the more apparent transients that get past the AX8 that aren't present in the XL+.

Again though, all speculation and personal experience on my part. Nothing truly factual. :)
Click to expand...
I'm not following. A buffer us same input as output gain. It merely changes impedances so you can go between less than ideal source/destination.
Just as when you have a cable with higher capacitance the top will roll off early. But because of the interaction with the guitars pickups the peak before the roll off will move closer to where there guitars meat is.
 
Danny Danzi said:
Just for the heck of it, try the axe fx input that's in the rear and see if it behaves more like your AX8.

My XL+ sounds different than my AX8 running the exact same presets with the exact same settings. I do not have the answers but can share what I think may be the differences.

The XL+ has an impedance option on the front input, which I have altered. The AX8 does not have this feature.

Next, I don't know for sure, but heck if my XL+ doesn't sound like it has something going on by way of a light limiter or compressor or something. I can't put my finger on it, but there's some.sort of buffer or something to my ears. My XL+ is just tighter sounding.

My AX8 doesn't have that tightness. It also by default, has a little more of a treble.bite to it, which is what my XL+ sounds like when I use the rear input. I've also found that reducing the "definition" knob on my AX8 in the amp options by -3 put me closer to the warmth of my XL+.

Maybe some.of the above will help you. Metal tones here too by the way.

Good luck.

-Danny
Click to expand...

Funny this should come up. I had noticed this recently and was comparing my AX8 to the XL+ last nite. Without a doubt, the 2 units sound and feel different using identical patches. I went as far as to negate any XL+ only factors like cab block preamp, Dephase, etc., and matched global settings for output EQs as well as input and output configs. No matter what, the 2 units are different. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the input section of each unit. The XL+ sounds and to a certain extent, feels "better". I'm not talking a night and day difference, but it is there.
As both units are on the same FW version, were set up the same and using the same freshly created patch, I'm not sure why there is a difference.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
I'm not following. A buffer us same input as output gain. It merely changes impedances so you can go between less than ideal source/destination.
Just as when you have a cable with higher capacitance the top will roll off early. But because of the interaction with the guitars pickups the peak before the roll off will move closer to where there guitars meat is.
Click to expand...
A good buffer is linear, with no compression. Its lower output impedance will make the guitar's signal less susceptible to the effects of cable capacitance. So it won't have the high-frequency rolloff or the downshift in the frequency of the pickup's treble peak, so the signal will sound brighter than it would without a buffer.
 
I've always wondered how the axe II has a dedicated processor for amp modeling, and the ax8 has one for everything, so is it really an apples to apples comparison?
 
dpeterson said:
I've always wondered how the axe II has a dedicated processor for amp modeling, and the ax8 has one for everything, so is it really an apples to apples comparison?
Click to expand...
The AX8 has two processors, they're just not as powerful as those in the Axe FX. It's been stated before that the amp modeling algorithms are exactly the same in both units, though the AX8 only has enough horsepower to run one at a time. I haven't directly compared my AX8 and XL but I would think the differences would be minor at best. They are both supposed to have the "secret sauce" on the input, the only difference I know of is that the Axe FX has variable input impedance. Now I'm curious, maybe I'll try to compare them this weekend.
 
Rex said:
A good buffer is linear, with no compression. Its lower output impedance will make the guitar's signal less susceptible to the effects of cable capacitance. So it won't have the high-frequency rolloff or the downshift in the frequency of the pickup's treble peak, so the signal will sound brighter than it would without a buffer.
Click to expand...
That was my point...
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
I'm not following. A buffer us same input as output gain. It merely changes impedances so you can go between less than ideal source/destination.
Just as when you have a cable with higher capacitance the top will roll off early. But because of the interaction with the guitars pickups the peak before the roll off will move closer to where there guitars meat is.
Click to expand...

Not sure where I've lost you. I was mentioning that my XL+ sounds a little different than my AX8 and took a guess (which I stated was not factual) at what the difference may be.

It's either some sort of pre, light compression/limiter or some sort of buffer. Maybe buffer is the wrong word. But there's something different that seems more compressed in a good way compared to the AX8. That's all I was trying to say.
 
Well, I am back home now and have played the FX XL setup for about an hour tonight. No question about it; not even close. And all of my presets on the AXE FX NEED a drive pedal, whereas on my AX8, not required at all; amp overdrive is more than enough on the AX8.
 
SteveW said:
Well, I am back home now and have played the FX XL setup for about an hour tonight. No question about it; not even close. And all of my presets on the AXE FX NEED a drive pedal, whereas on my AX8, not required at all; amp overdrive is more than enough on the AX8.
Click to expand...
Just for giggles, carry your AX8 to where your Axe-Fx is, and plug it into that rig. Compare them both through the same amp/cab/room. You'll finds that the two devices, when set up the same, have pretty much identical gain.


SteveW said:
The difference is staggering to me...and I know it's not the AX8, but the amp.
Click to expand...
Aye.
 
Before my previous post last night, I went to the input settings on my FX XL+ and dialed them all the way up to 100%, just for fun. There was virtually no change in sound at all.
 
SteveW said:
Before my previous post last night, I went to the input settings on my FX XL+ and dialed them all the way up to 100%, just for fun. There was virtually no change in sound at all.
Click to expand...
That's to be expected. Increases in gain before the A/D converter are automatically compensated for by decreases in the digital domain. The purpose of the input settings is to optimize the signal-to-noise ratio, not to change levels.
 
SteveW said:
Before my previous post last night, I went to the input settings on my FX XL+ and dialed them all the way up to 100%, just for fun. There was virtually no change in sound at all.
Click to expand...
Those don't affect the level of the signal that hits the amp, they're just used to get the best signal to noise ratio to the A/D converter.
 
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