Fletcher-Munson curve query

R

Rockin Axe

Member
Hi Forum. Bear with me - this could be a long one!
I know (and we all know) what the Fletcher-Munson curve is. I've played live for 30 years and have experienced this
and have dealt with it, with no issue. I know from the posts I've read here, that the consensus is to create your
patches (I have the AXE FX 2 and an Atomic CLR) at gig level - which makes sense. So far so good then. I feel I need
to give some details of my live playing situation so as to understand where I'm arriving with my query. So here we go!

I've been playing in a trio for 3 years. The trio consists of a stand up drummer playing a Roland TDK electronic kit. I'm playing
a Mesa Boogie Roadster head thru a Rectifier 2x12 box with pedals on the floor. (I recently bought an Axe FX 2 XL and a CLR. I'm making
patches atm so I'm not ready to go live yet). Bass and all other instruments are on backing tracks, which I make. Now in the old days, I would
play live alongside a drummer with a full live kit and live bass player. I would turn up my amp to be able to hear myself alongside the drummer.
(I'm not a 'turn up to 11' type player). Turning up to match the live stage sound would result in the Fletcher-Munson curve, which I had no problem dealing with.
Now with my trio, the only sound coming from stage is me (as there's no stage sound from the drummer) and from the lead singer
with 2 wedges on the floor with a little backing track in his wedges. I have no need to crank anything as I'm not competing with other live instruments and I also wear IEM.
So my playing live stage volume with the CLR, will only be marginally louder than my bedroom playing (again because of no live stage sound to fight
with and I have my IEM). I will be turning up my CLR for enough stage spill and balancing this with my IEM, so I won't be loud at all,
similar to the way I'm running my Boogie and IEM atm. Even when we've played large outdoor gigs, my stage sound has remained the same
(again due to the electronic drums and my IEM). Bearing in mind then that I will turn up a little from my bedroom volume but I won't really need to crank anything, is it fair to say that:
- I won't experience the Fletcher-Munson curve (to some degree) in it's truest sense?
- the patches I make at home won't have to be altered too much (give & take a little) for live playing (and to take into account the FM curve) as I won't need to crank my CLR?

Sorry for the long post!
 
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Difficult to say really. The F-M-curve is an approximation that 'catches a good amount of fish' but it is not a gospel truth. The non-linearity of your ear is most likely different than mine or anyone else's.

If this is truly a concern, you could employ a sound level meter and set all of your patches when you are at around 76dB C-scale (give or take). Generally, this is the range where ears have the flattest response. Hope that helps.
 
Thx happycritter. Good info.

I won't have trouble dealing with FM if it rears it's head. I just don't think I'm gonna crank loud enough to encounter FM.

I think I may take your advice (similar to Scott Peterson on an older thread) and buy a SPL meter.



happycritter said:
Difficult to say really. The F-M-curve is an approximation that 'catches a good amount of fish' but it is not a gospel truth. The non-linearity of your ear is most likely different than mine or anyone else's.

If this is truly a concern, you could employ a sound level meter and set all of your patches when you are at around 76dB C-scale (give or take). Generally, this is the range where ears have the flattest response. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
 
Do you plug into a PA system? How does your drummer amplify his sound if he's using an electronic kit?

Whilst you may not encounter the FM curve with your own stage setup (as your stage sound is very close to your home sound), if you are being cranked through a PA, then FOH may experience the FM curve issues.
 
Hey dbun

ATM I'm not using the Axe live but eventually when I do, I will run Output 1 to PA and Output 2 to CLR.
I'm miking my Rectifier Cab atm and the drummer has one line that comes out of his unit straight into the Mixing desk. He wears IEM as well and that's how he hears himself. He says it's like a studio in his ears as he wears both. I only wear one IEM as I like a bit of stage ambience. His electronic drum kit is the same in a way, as the AXE.
He has plenty of kits to choose from, can create kits and the sound is consistent every night. I edit the kits for him as he's not technically minded, and he gets so many compliments from drummers on how great his kit sounds.
It's a great way to play after 30 years of loud stages and the main benefit is that we can do 'normal' pub gigs and sound great out front and do weddings where there's no loud snare or noise off stage, so we're only as loud as FOH - no stage spill to worry about which allows me to mix cleanly from side of stage and keep the volume to a level where it's bearable, going for a walk now and then with my wireless guitar.
That's why I'm not sure I'll encounter the FM - was just curious that's all.

dbun said:
Do you plug into a PA system? How does your drummer amplify his sound if he's using an electronic kit?

Whilst you may not encounter the FM curve with your own stage setup (as your stage sound is very close to your home sound), if you are being cranked through a PA, then FOH may experience the FM curve issues.
Click to expand...
 
I would recommend spending the $ to rent a rehearsal room at your local rehearsal spot. Most places out here in LA have a "showcase room" which is the size of a house of blues size main stage. Before I started gigging with my axe fx, I spent the $30/hr and did a rehearsal with a band I was working with here. This band also did casino gigs on a Roland vdrum kit. I bought dinner for the drummer to bring his Roland kit too.

I prefaced that I was dialing in my sounds at stage volume. Afterwards, I rented an extra hour solo and tweaked further with backing tracks etc (still at volume) until I was satisfied.

Best money I spent getting my sounds dialed in, also the experience will "train" your ear what to hear for and tweak to make your sounds come alive. I've had many many clients repeat the same mistake over and over in this regard. think of it as sound checking with a real amp, every gig before an AxeFx I found myself turning and twisting knobs during soundcheck and during the gig to mesh well with a band.
 
Yes, you'll encounter F-M. So will your audience.

"Only as loud as FOH?" That ain't bedroom level. :)

You may be able to mix cleanly from the side of the stage, but you won't be able to mix accurately there. What you hear will be dominated by room reflections; what the audience hears will be dominated by FOH.

No matter how you cut it, there's no substitute for dialing in your tones at gig level.
 
Playing environment makes a difference as well - a dead room with soft furnishings and lots of people has less reverb which gives the perception of less highs. Playing outdoors gives the perception of less bass. But I'm not sure if everyone hears it that way.

I set my patches to sound somewhat muddy at bedroom levels, with lots of high cut above 5 KHz and boosted low mids for the octaves above and below 250Hz, which includes a gentle bass roll-off. This gets me into the ballpark paying live and loud.
 
I'm going to stray away from your original question and ask another couple: Why do you need the CLR at gigs in the first place? Why not just feed the FOH mix to your onstage monitors (IE or wedges)? Since no other instruments will be producing any onstage volume, it seems to make sense to me to just run the whole show through your monitors so you and the drummer can hear exactly what the audience hears.

I play electric guitar (with an AFX II) in a 4-piece band with acoustic guitar, acoustic bass (Washburn, not stand-up), and relatively light drum kit. We're not a high volume band. The electric and acoustic guitars have no onstage speakers other than the same wedges used for vocals. The bass is running a smallish amp with a 4x10 cabinet and a DI into the PA, and the drums are typically not mic'ed at all. For most of our gigs in small venues, there is almost no bass and no drums running into the PA or monitors. Larger venues we might add a little bass to the PA and monitors and mic the kick drum. Our onstage monitors are running the same mix as FOH, so we can usually get a pretty good idea about FOH mix balance from onstage. It seems like with your "soundless stage" lineup, you could get a killer FOH and stage mix and have no need for the extra guitar volume onstage that the CLR would provide.

It took me a while to get accustomed to NOT hearing my guitar come from a speaker behind me, but once I got used to it, I've gotten to where I prefer it. I no longer feel the breeze on my pant legs from a big cabinet behind me, but the wedges in front of me give me enough air movement to feel the thump of a good 4x12 IR, or get controlled feedback when needed.
 
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Hey Rex. What I mean when I say "only as loud as FOH" is that through my 30 years of playing, I've seen many a band (including ourselves) be so loud on stage with guitars spilling so loud off stage, that the FOH had the guitar fader off and not in the mix.
With my trio (once I have the AXE up and running) our onstage sound will be almost unheard, again except for some guitar in my CLR and the singer coming through his wedges. Our singer's not loud either coz there's no 'live' instruments (so to speak), to compete with.
With me wearing IEM, I can keep my guitar super quiet onstage. I still like to 'feel' guitar but not at volumes of years ago. FOH still rocks though.
Even though I don't think that I will encounter the FM curve as I would've back in the day, I will still create my patches at gig level, just in case.


Rex said:
Yes, you'll encounter F-M. So will your audience.

"Only as loud as FOH?" That ain't bedroom level. :)

You may be able to mix cleanly from the side of the stage, but you won't be able to mix accurately there. What you hear will be dominated by room reflections; what the audience hears will be dominated by FOH.

No matter how you cut it, there's no substitute for dialing in your tones at gig level.
Click to expand...
 
Hey TG3K
There's more to the story but I didn't want the thread to go on.........
Every Friday we play a local pub gig (over 3 years) and the venue has a it's own, massive PA. I bring my desk and patch it in and use the rest of the pubs system, mixing from side of stage. We get a great sound because we're only 3 piece, not much sound coming off stage to compete with and backing tracks - fairly simple mix.
At this gig (coz it's a big venue) I crank the PA. At this gig (when my AXE is ready to go) I'll go direct to FOH from output 1 and output 2 to my CLR for some stage ambience - not for loudness as I have my IEM. Plus our singer is used to hearing some guitar from my side of stage. He can put me guitar in his wedges but he prefers not to. Why a lead singer doesn't have IEM is strange to me!
When we do wedding gigs or private functions, we use our own PA. 1 x 15" RCF a side plus 18" sub etc (nothing like the pub's PA!).
At these gigs I will run direct to FOH WITHOUT the CLR. The private gigs are way quieter than our pub gigs.


TG3K said:
I'm going to stray away from your original question and ask another couple: Why do you need the CLR at gigs in the first place? Why not just feed the FOH mix to your onstage monitors (IE or wedges)? Since no other instruments will be producing any onstage volume, it seems to make sense to me to just run the whole show through your monitors so you and the drummer can hear exactly what the audience hears.

I play electric guitar (with an AFX II) in a 4-piece band with acoustic guitar, acoustic bass (Washburn, not stand-up), and relatively light drum kit. We're not a high volume band. The electric and acoustic guitars have no onstage speakers other than the same wedges used for vocals. The bass is running a smallish amp with a 4x10 cabinet and a DI into the PA, and the drums are typically not mic'ed at all. For most of our gigs in small venues, there is almost no bass and no drums running into the PA or monitors. Larger venues we might add a little bass to the PA and monitors and mic the kick drum. Our onstage monitors are running the same mix as FOH, so we can usually get a pretty good idea about FOH mix balance from onstage. It seems like with your "soundless stage" lineup, you could get a killer FOH and stage mix and have no need for the extra guitar volume onstage that the CLR would provide.

It took me a while to get accustomed to NOT hearing my guitar come from a speaker behind me, but once I got used to it, I've gotten to where I prefer it. I no longer feel the breeze on my pant legs from a big cabinet behind me, but the wedges in front of me give me enough air movement to feel the thump of a good 4x12 IR, or get controlled feedback when needed.
Click to expand...
 
Hey Rosh
I just watched your You Tube video a few days ago! [h=1]Rosh Roslin Axe FX Rig Rundown[/h]
I was always planning to go into a rehearsal studio with our own PA (2 x RCF plus sub etc) and drummer and backing tracks to hear how I sit in the mix and truly hear
what sounds I'm producing from the AXE.
My question was simply one of: If the FM curve really only happens at high volumes, will I not experience it if I play fairly quiet?
I get the feeling that people are misunderstanding what I'm asking.
I'm still creating my initial patches at home then will test them in a rehearsal studio before I go live. I'm not in a hurry as I still
have my boogie rig I use every Friday night. I'm gonna take my time and get it all right.
Thx for your input.

RoshRoslin said:
I would recommend spending the $ to rent a rehearsal room at your local rehearsal spot. Most places out here in LA have a "showcase room" which is the size of a house of blues size main stage. Before I started gigging with my axe fx, I spent the $30/hr and did a rehearsal with a band I was working with here. This band also did casino gigs on a Roland vdrum kit. I bought dinner for the drummer to bring his Roland kit too.

I prefaced that I was dialing in my sounds at stage volume. Afterwards, I rented an extra hour solo and tweaked further with backing tracks etc (still at volume) until I was satisfied.

Best money I spent getting my sounds dialed in, also the experience will "train" your ear what to hear for and tweak to make your sounds come alive. I've had many many clients repeat the same mistake over and over in this regard. think of it as sound checking with a real amp, every gig before an AxeFx I found myself turning and twisting knobs during soundcheck and during the gig to mesh well with a band.
Click to expand...
 
Rockin Axe said:
Hey Rex. What I mean when I say "only as loud as FOH" is that through my 30 years of playing, I've seen many a band (including ourselves) be so loud on stage with guitars spilling so loud off stage, that the FOH had the guitar fader off and not in the mix.
With my trio (once I have the AXE up and running) our onstage sound will be almost unheard, again except for some guitar in my CLR and the singer coming through his wedges.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying. Sometimes i have to mix a guitarist/vocalist who insists on hot stage volume, and it competes with FOH. Yucky.


Consider this:

For your wedge to make any difference at all, it's going to have to compete with FOH (or at least as much of that as makes its way to the stage). That's going to be way louder than bedroom level—here come Mssrs. Fletcher and Munson.

And here's the killer: your audience gets full FOH volume, regardless of what the stage sounds like. If your sound in the house matters to you, there's no escaping the full effect of F-M.
 
Hey Rex I entirely agree with what you're saying.
I guess the difference in my case is that the FOH speakers are flown so I'm not really dealing with FOH as you normally would in a traditional sense, with FOH bins
2 feet in front of you. Having the bins flown makes it a 'less in your face' deal for the audience and us.
I've had my guitar cranked in years gone past (believe it or not I do like loud guitar) but this gig is different. The closest thing to me is one of the subs. It gives me good bottom end (as we have no bass player) so there's no real competing. I know my stage volume at this gig currently with my boogie and it's not loud, hence
my question about FM. I will still be aware of FM and not dismiss it and I will rent a rehearsal room prior to going live.
As I mentioned in my reply to Rosh, I guess I was basically asking: If the FM curve really only happens at high volumes, will I not experience it if I play fairly quiet?
I guess I over complicated it with all the info I posted!

Rex said:
I get what you're saying. Sometimes i have to mix a guitarist/vocalist who insists on hot stage volume, and it competes with FOH. Yucky.


Consider this:

For your wedge to make any difference at all, it's going to have to compete with FOH (or at least as much of that as makes its way to the stage). That's going to be way louder than bedroom level—here come Mssrs. Fletcher and Munson.

And here's the killer: your audience gets full FOH volume, regardless of what the stage sounds like. If your sound in the house matters to you, there's no escaping the full effect of F-M.
Click to expand...
 
Rockin Axe said:
...I guess I was basically asking: If the FM curve really only happens at high volumes, will I not experience it if I play fairly quiet?
Click to expand...
The "Fletcher-Munson curve" is really a set of curves. These curves describe the differences in human hearing as loudness changes. There's no magic volume level at which F-M "happens;" the effect exists whenever the volume changes. The bigger the change, the bigger the effect.

If FOH is set to fill the house to a level of 100 dB, that's the volume in the house, whether the speakers are six feet off the floor or a hundred feet—there's no "in your face" factor in F-M. :) And the stage is going to be way louder than bedroom level, even if there are no monitors at all. You just can't fill a room with that much sound without having a bunch of it spill onto the stage.

Your monitors have to be louder than the house spill at your listening position, or they might as well not be there at all. And there's Fletcher-Munson—still affecting you, and still fully affecting the audience.


Check out the curves. Look at the difference in shape between bedroom level (~70 dB) and moderate gig level (~100 dB). There's no escaping it.

fletchermunson.gif
 
Rockin Axe said:
Hey Rosh
I just watched your You Tube video a few days ago! [h=1]Rosh Roslin Axe FX Rig Rundown[/h]
I was always planning to go into a rehearsal studio with our own PA (2 x RCF plus sub etc) and drummer and backing tracks to hear how I sit in the mix and truly hear
what sounds I'm producing from the AXE.
My question was simply one of: If the FM curve really only happens at high volumes, will I not experience it if I play fairly quiet?
I get the feeling that people are misunderstanding what I'm asking.
I'm still creating my initial patches at home then will test them in a rehearsal studio before I go live. I'm not in a hurry as I still
have my boogie rig I use every Friday night. I'm gonna take my time and get it all right.
Thx for your input.
Click to expand...

Thanks, hope you liked it.

My main point is this subject comes up a lot. I haven't heard Fletcher Munson mentioned so much until I started getting on the internet guitar forums. In my opinion, A LOT of people are over thinking it. Get your stuff dialed in at rehearsal at volume. This is the case with any amp, any venue, any style of music, period.

I know we're trying to spend a lot of time getting the stuff dialed in at home, and get our sound etc. Honestly, I just get my patches, go to the VU meter (Utility, VU). Get everything around unity and then go from there. I'm very very very fast on the front panel so I just add some bass, mids or treble on my 5 patches when I get to the venue and off I go. (I use the shortcut Layout > X > and adjust with ABCD knobs.)

Everything else that needs to be done on the fly can be done with a volume pedal. Just crank your amp/clr/whatever louder than you need it and back off the volume pedal. That will be your "home base" and you can add more volume if needed or cut back if it's too loud. Make your amp brighter than you think you need and you can adjust on the fly with your guitar tone knob. Use less gain than you think you need. Hopefully you have patches with boosts and overdrives to adjust the tone, maybe an expression or two.

I don't ever worry too much about "sitting in the mix" or whatever. It's live, it's a gig. Focus on how well you're playing and the performance and you can make any patch you dialed in at home sound great. I still treat my AxeFX like a traditional guitar amp, it's just nice to have more options at my disposal instead of gigging with multiple amps. Need more volume? Turn it up! Too boomy? Cut that bass. Too bright? Roll off that tone knob, switch your pickups etc.

Don't overthink it. As Cliff and everyone else states, trust your ears. :)
 
Most logical statement to date! How simple is that?

I bought an AXE MK II around a year ago and overthought it and sold it due to 'option anxiety'.
I swore I would take a more simple and 'amp like' approach to it this time (after buying the XL) and so far, so good. (maybe except for this FM curve thread!)
I've been playing live, 2-3 nights a week for around 30 years. I've done over 3000 gigs - what am I doing???? Lol
I've got my shit down by now. Just get on with it! (Rant to myself over!)

I really appreciate the way you laid it all out there - with simplicity.

Thx a bunch!
Loved the video.


RoshRoslin said:
Thanks, hope you liked it.

My main point is this subject comes up a lot. I haven't heard Fletcher Munson mentioned so much until I started getting on the internet guitar forums. In my opinion, A LOT of people are over thinking it. Get your stuff dialed in at rehearsal at volume. This is the case with any amp, any venue, any style of music, period.

I know we're trying to spend a lot of time getting the stuff dialed in at home, and get our sound etc. Honestly, I just get my patches, go to the VU meter (Utility, VU). Get everything around unity and then go from there. I'm very very very fast on the front panel so I just add some bass, mids or treble on my 5 patches when I get to the venue and off I go. (I use the shortcut Layout > X > and adjust with ABCD knobs.)

Everything else that needs to be done on the fly can be done with a volume pedal. Just crank your amp/clr/whatever louder than you need it and back off the volume pedal. That will be your "home base" and you can add more volume if needed or cut back if it's too loud. Make your amp brighter than you think you need and you can adjust on the fly with your guitar tone knob. Use less gain than you think you need. Hopefully you have patches with boosts and overdrives to adjust the tone, maybe an expression or two.

I don't ever worry too much about "sitting in the mix" or whatever. It's live, it's a gig. Focus on how well you're playing and the performance and you can make any patch you dialed in at home sound great. I still treat my AxeFX like a traditional guitar amp, it's just nice to have more options at my disposal instead of gigging with multiple amps. Need more volume? Turn it up! Too boomy? Cut that bass. Too bright? Roll off that tone knob, switch your pickups etc.

Don't overthink it. As Cliff and everyone else states, trust your ears. :)
Click to expand...
 
Well !
Then what is the problem really. If you have in ear-monitoring I guess the only one hearing your amp would be the drummer, or singer,or bassplayer.
They usually don´t care much about the guitarsound. Also the in-ear system will sound so unnatural that this will probably not be an issue.
 
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