Twin Guitar Parts Help

[joetdc]

I would like to start off by saying I have 0 knowledge when it comes to theory. I know that most guitar harmonies are diatonic thirds, fourths, and fifths. Sadly that means nothing to me. Add my poor knowledge to the complexity of the AXE FX and I'm lost. Can someone tell me how to use the AXE to create a harmony with one guitar. How would I set up my AXE pitch shift or harmonizer to play Hotel California solo for example. Laymens terms please. Thanks!

 

[Poparad]

The intelligent harmonizer will intelligently shift what you play up or down however many notes in the scale that you set it to. If you're playing a song in the key of G major, then you can set the Pitch block to "Intelligent Pitch Shift" and then in the advanced tab, set the key to G major and the shift amount to the interval you wish to shift (1 = unison, 2 = second, 3 = third, etc).

You are correct that many harmonized solos are in thirds, however, it's not always strictly thirds. For example, in Hotel California, the harmonized parts are harmonizing within the arpeggio of each chord, and not within a scale, so the intervals are always changing (sometimes thirds, sometimes fourths, depending on the notes being harmonized). Also, not every song is strictly within one key. Again, Hotel California is a good example, as there are three distinct keys within the 8 bar progression (B natural minor, B harmonic minor, and A major).

If you just want to goof around with the harmonizer, try setting it up a 3rd within the key of whatever song you're playing. However, you will probably have to buckle down and study your theory a bit more to understand harmony well enough to know how to most effectively harmonize lines.

The best place for the Pitch Block for this effect (in my opinion), is between the amp and cab, with the mix set to 50% or slightly less (if you want your original part to be a little more dominating). Pitch shifting should always come after distortion (to avoid nasty intermodulated distortion), but before any further effects.

 

[joetdc]

I wish I could learn theory. I have tried many times. I also don't have that much time to work on it. I have seen people play that solo with one guitar many times and it sounds fine. I just wanted to make it a little better. Every time I use any type of Pitch shift or Harmonizer it never sounds like a harmony. More like an octave divider. Based on what you are telling me all I need to do is set it a third up or down in the right key and it should sound like two harmonized guitars. I will give it a try. Lots of good info. Thanks!

The intelligent harmonizer will intelligently shift what you play up or down however many notes in the scale that you set it to. If you're playing a song in the key of G major, then you can set the Pitch block to "Intelligent Pitch Shift" and then in the advanced tab, set the key to G major and the shift amount to the interval you wish to shift (1 = unison, 2 = second, 3 = third, etc).

You are correct that many harmonized solos are in thirds, however, it's not always strictly thirds. For example, in Hotel California, the harmonized parts are harmonizing within the arpeggio of each chord, and not within a scale, so the intervals are always changing (sometimes thirds, sometimes fourths, depending on the notes being harmonized). Also, not every song is strictly within one key. Again, Hotel California is a good example, as there are three distinct keys within the 8 bar progression (B natural minor, B harmonic minor, and A major).

If you just want to goof around with the harmonizer, try setting it up a 3rd within the key of whatever song you're playing. However, you will probably have to buckle down and study your theory a bit more to understand harmony well enough to know how to most effectively harmonize lines.

The best place for the Pitch Block for this effect (in my opinion), is between the amp and cab, with the mix set to 50% or slightly less (if you want your original part to be a little more dominating). Pitch shifting should always come after distortion (to avoid nasty intermodulated distortion), but before any further effects.

 

[jesussaddle]

I read the axe fx manual on the intelligent harmonizer mode of the pitch block, hmm, maybe not very easy to understand... Axe Wiki just refers to the manual. I don't think I can explain it better.

Lets see... LOL. Go into the preset "A Major Harmony" and turn the level down on the second voice, so only one additional voice is sounding. Do what it says in there, by setting the key to G Ionian Major (Major=Ionian Mode, Ionian became the Major mode and aeolian became the minor mode) and you will see that the values 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are the seven G major/ionian scale degrees, going UP the scale.

Stick with me here. I'll get to what happens when you play OTHER NOTES THAN G.

It is best to truly understand what happens when you play G and clear up any confusions. Only then clear up confusions that result from playing other notes, lol.

(In the manual this is under the Scale Formulas section under the Harmonizer. 8 is an octave. 16 is two octaves. - minus values are just the same process, going downward, but minus 2 is actually the major seventth scale degree (F#), [why is it called this, well, because the first degree should have been called zero, meaning zero half steps up.

But we must keep trying to please our music teachers, so the root is the 1st scale degree. The rest is a total nightmare, lol.

IMHO Diatonic degrees should have been counted from the root, so that in the key of C, 0 degrees up would be C, 1 degree up would be D, and so on, with the next octave at 7 degrees up. Count it out on the piano. That is the mathematical way I look at it to avoid confusion.

But music teachers fret when a new idea is played upon their brains.

so within the confines of pedagogic music terminology and modern programming, with a G Major/Ionian setting, ifyou play G this is what happens with settings of minus:
-2 = M7=1 half step down from G
-3 = M6=3 half steps down
-4 = P5 = 5 half steps down = the the note D.
-5 = P4 = 7 " " " "
etc.

To rehash, a value of 2 means to go to the next scale degree from the note you are on. So when you play G, you hear A.

The thing which is not that obvious is that when you play other notes than G, the harmonizer will continue shifting by whatever is the required number of half steps, to keep the distance in diatonic steps (in key steps) i.e. in-key scale degrees the same as it would have been in the example when one played G. But first you need to know what diatonic scale degrees are. What they are is the series of notes in the key, i.e. WITHIN that key's scale. G does not have a G# or Ab, and it does not have the note A# or Bb. So these will be skipped with your setting of G. In other words, if you play G with a setting of 2, the note heard for that voice will be the 2nd diatonic (within scale) scale degree of G, your setting.

If you play the note A with the settings of G Major/Ionian, with a setting of 2, it will shift up to the next scale degree, so you will hear the note B. If you play the note Bb or B, and turn the mix to 100% FX, you will notice that you hear the next in-key degree in each case, which is the same note. It is the note C. In the case of Bb, it is playing the next scale degree up from Bb (which is NOT IN THE KEY OF G YOU WILL NOTICE - BUT THIS DOESN'T MATTER) The program cannot check to see what the next scale degree is from A, because you are not playing A. So it finds the next scale degree from B.

If this seems anything but clear, it could be my fault. It is not Cliff's fault certainly. Because the 1st degree of the Major Scale must never be considered in terms of half steps from the root. (zero half steps). It must only be called 1. The Engineers have it wrong. The music theorists have it right. But only the ones following the tuning of A=438 hz. The rest are Satanists and Engineers.

The best way to use the harmonizer is by switching between settings and aspiring to be musical. It sounds a little strange if one keeps the same setting for very long.

Great example of using A/B and two scenes etc.:



Live, with only one setting:



You can get some wonderful harmonies by switching slightly, and just adding a single voice. And just occasionally a third voice (via presets and A/B).

 

[Poparad]

(In the manual this is under the Scale Formulas section under the Harmonizer. 8 is an octave. 16 is two octaves. - minus values are just the same process, going downward, but minus 2 is actually the major seventth scale degree (F#), [why is it called this, well, because the first degree should have been called zero, meaning zero half steps up.

But we must keep trying to please our music teachers, so the root is the 1st scale degree. The rest is a total nightmare, lol.

IMHO Diatonic degrees should have been counted from the root, so that in the key of C, 0 degrees up would be C, 1 degree up would be D, and so on, with the next octave at 7 degrees up. Count it out on the piano. That is the mathematical way I look at it to avoid confusion.

But music teachers fret when a new idea is played upon their brains.

As a music teacher, if find this quite a bit insulting. I'm always searching for new knowledge and understanding, and to imply that teachers stick to things as they are for no other reason than they are afraid of change is so far off point from reality. The reason why an old idea is held onto is only because there's some valuable reason to do so. As soon as it loses its value, it's discarded in favor of whatever has greater benefits.

In terms of scale degrees, there are two very good reasons for the standard system: 1) it does, in fact, follow a logical pattern. It may not be your first instinct, but it's logical nonetheless, and can easily be understood after only a little bit of thought, and 2) it's the standard naming system that everyone else uses, so if you want to communicate clearly, there's an immeasurable benefit to speaking with the same terminology. If you asked a painter for the "plum" paint, but actually wanted green, because plum leaves are green, it would confusing because that's not what the standard is that everyone has settled on.

For scale degrees, the first note is 1, which makes plenty of sense. The second note in a scale is 2, which again is very logical. The interval between 1 and 2 is a second. The interval between 1 and 3 is a third, and so on. Very simple and easy to follow. Since the exact space between these intervals varies depending on which two notes in a scale are chosen, the relative labels of "second" or "third" are very simple and useful.

Now, for the chromatic pitch shifter in the Axe, it does in fact go by numerical semitones. In this case, you're specifying exactly how far to shift the voices, so absolute distance is necessary. Not shifting at all would be moving it 0 semitones, so "0" is in fact the same note. Moving it up a half step would be "+1," and so on.

The important distinction here is that for scale degree intervals, you're counting things (1st note and the 2nd note as a pair), but for the chromatic shift, you're counting distance (how far to move from one spot to another).

All very logical and follows a very basic and consistent system.

 

[barhrecords]

I've found the custom scale transposition to be confusing.

You set a "key" in the preset that transposes the custom scale relative to the key of A major. Would be cool to change that setting to a simple transpose.

Key, by the way, is useful for the non-custom scales. It's just a bad fit, in my opinion, for the custom scales.

 

[joetdc]

Sorry I have not checked back in a while. For some reason I don't get alerts on my email when somebody responds. I checked my settings they seem fine but that is another story.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the input. Sadly you lost me at hello. LOL I have a graduate level education and I have no idea what your talking about. Maybe it's a mental block. Was never good at math either.
I thought it would be as simple as find the key your solo is in, decide which type of harmony I want, and play. No matter what I do it always sounds like "owner of a lonely heart" or an octave divider instead of two guitars playing in harmony. If that makes any sense to anyone.

 

[bradlake]

Sorry I have not checked back in a while. For some reason I don't get alerts on my email when somebody responds. I checked my settings they seem fine but that is another story.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the input. Sadly you lost me at hello. LOL I have a graduate level education and I have no idea what your talking about. Maybe it's a mental block. Was never good at math either.
I thought it would be as simple as find the key your solo is in, decide which type of harmony I want, and play. No matter what I do it always sounds like "owner of a lonely heart" or an octave divider instead of two guitars playing in harmony. If that makes any sense to anyone.

Not that it will help you (or me) understand the vagaries of harmonization, but did you put this thread in your "watched threads" list? You will then be alerted when new posts come.

 

[joetdc]

Not that it will help you (or me) understand the vagaries of harmonization, but did you put this thread in your "watched threads" list? You will then be alerted when new posts come.

I just assumed that if I started the thread it would be watched. It's not listed under watched threads. That being said the only option on the top right of this thread is "unwatch thread" If I click on it it asks me if I want to stop watching the thread. I checked my email in my account. It's the correct one. I also have "notify me" when people reply checked.

 

[bradlake]

I just assumed that if I started the thread it would be watched. It's not listed under watched threads. That being said the only option on the top right of this thread is "unwatch thread" If I click on it it asks me if I want to stop watching the thread. I checked my email in my account. It's the correct one. I also have "notify me" when people reply checked.

Hmm ya got me....

 

[bradlake]

Hmm ya got me....

I just assumed that if I started the thread it would be watched. It's not listed under watched threads. That being said the only option on the top right of this thread is "unwatch thread" If I click on it it asks me if I want to stop watching the thread. I checked my email in my account. It's the correct one. I also have "notify me" when people reply checked.

Maybe @iaresee can help you out..I believe he set up the forum software

 

[iaresee]

Maybe @iaresee can help you out..I believe he set up the forum software

Make sure this preference is set to be automatically subscribed to threads you create or reply to:



Also, Watched Threads only shows threads with activity since you last visited the forum.

 

[RickTN]

I wish I could learn theory. I have tried many times. I also don't have that much time to work on it. I have seen people play that solo with one guitar many times and it sounds fine. I just wanted to make it a little better. Every time I use any type of Pitch shift or Harmonizer it never sounds like a harmony. More like an octave divider. Based on what you are telling me all I need to do is set it a third up or down in the right key and it should sound like two harmonized guitars. I will give it a try. Lots of good info. Thanks!

I'm old....and really not a good player. But music theory as related to the guitar is intriguing to me. I want to understand what players are talking about when I read the stories and lessons on-line. I'm attempting now to find a local guitar instructor that will teach me theory (at my own pace) really more than teaching me much on the guitar as far as playing. I had one teach a year or so ago and he taught me the basics but even he did not know past a certain point. It's difficult finding that person that has the knowledge and is willing to teach at my level (slightly above newbie)......I've read a lot on line and watched a ton of YouTube instructions but it really helps having a live person to explain it to me and to be able to ask questions (however dumb). I know some of it is plain memorization of scales and such. Really helps to know off the top of your head what the 5th in the Gm scale (or whatever) is without having to figure it out of look at a chart. But I'm SLOWLY getting there.

Any advice from guys here?

 

[JT2]

I'm old....and really not a good player. But music theory as related to the guitar is intriguing to me. I want to understand what players are talking about when I read the stories and lessons on-line. I'm attempting now to find a local guitar instructor that will teach me theory (at my own pace) really more than teaching me much on the guitar as far as playing. I had one teach a year or so ago and he taught me the basics but even he did not know past a certain point. It's difficult finding that person that has the knowledge and is willing to teach at my level (slightly above newbie)......I've read a lot on line and watched a ton of YouTube instructions but it really helps having a live person to explain it to me and to be able to ask questions (however dumb). I know some of it is plain memorization of scales and such. Really helps to know off the top of your head what the 5th in the Gm scale (or whatever) is without having to figure it out of look at a chart. But I'm SLOWLY getting there.

Any advice from guys here?

Check your mail.

 

[electronpirate]

I'm with you on this. I went through some pain to learn this (and I'm far from feeling proficient at it.)

FWIW, you picked a very tough song to learn about harmonizing guitar parts. From what I remember, it changes several times during the song, and one forum member had it hooked it up to a CC, and had to hit the button to switch at the right time WHILE playing. One I would consider a bit more realistic as far as learning would be 'Two Tickets to Paradise' from Eddie Money. It's pretty straighforward. And if you do a search around here, there's a preset a learned forum member cooked up the block for it. I'd look for that, load it up on your box, and play with it a little.

I'll look around for it.

Ron

EDIT: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/harmonizer-in-the-axe-fx-2.86251/page-2#post-1266713

 

[jesussaddle]

As a music teacher, if find this quite a bit insulting. I

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult. Obviously if there weren't music teachers I wouldn't be able to even think about any of this. The disagreement is not really because of my experience learning music, but because I have needed to program musical software. When I try to program musical logic I tend to think in terms of Occams razor, in which distances between pitch frequencies are counted from zero, like if you were to count 5 inches, the beginning of the distance would not be marked 1 inch.

You make a good point though. Whole numbers are crucial in musical philosophy. Whenever I think of Pythagoras applying ratios to discover the idea of musical scales and chords, I imagine him to be working with ratios formed of whole numbers. So although to me any resulting frequency relationship distances should, in my mind as a programmer, begin with a zero, notes on paper are obviously treated as things, not distances. These notes are played on instruments, usually, with fingers, which I guess emphasizes your point. Maybe a lot more guitarists are going to relate to your method than mine.

I guess in the back of my mind, in order to understand all this I have somehow formed the habit of converting these "things" to ratios. I.e. a ii-V-I progression is a statement of ratios, which are not pitch/key specific. In the same way, I in the back of my mind I have compared every scale to the chromatic scale, and every other tuning to the equal tempered tuning. On my guitar, to get a pure minor third, as blues players often do without realizing it, I bend about 14/100ths sharp, which sounds ecstatically more beautiful than the crummy equal tempered minor third. To think about what I'm doing, I need to think in terms of a ruler with 100 steps from the equal tempered minor third to the major third, and go up 0.14 of a half step (towards the major third).

If I bend up 14 cents (0.14 semitones) from the 15th fret, before playing an open E minor chord for example, I am rewarded with something that has nuance that I immediately recognize in players like Gary Moore, who always seem to "sing notes". So to me, ratios are formed of whole numbers, but measuring the frequency of pitches that form the ratios, as we do when we compare two cent positions in the equal tempered octave, is best likened to the use of a ruler, where one would start at zero.

The reason this was brought up is that in the harmonizer, -2, a diatonic M7, is one half step down from the root. This implies that the root is both +1 and -1. Or why would one jump to -2? When you start going up from the root and down from the root, and use the convention of negative numbers, to me this is unnecessarily confusing. I shouldn't tried to inject humor into my post. It was snide. It was really only this that was my intended point: that to a programmer it is difficult to inculcate music theory into GUI's.

Again, the abacus and modern calculator can peacefully coexist. Counting things (like diatonic scale steps) is as valid as measuring things, they both inform the brain.