Wish TOGGLE parameters/2scenes/2channel with 1 momentary MIDI switch (e.g. Solos)

[BobXX]

[ Edit: added user's Manual extract of vintage GX-700 and printscreen of GT-PRO editor ]
[ Edited and corrrected after suggestions from Unix-guy, Thank you for your contributes ! ]

I need to decide - differently in each preset (I assume in modifiers panel) - the temporary or toggle action from each physical momentary MIDI switch of foot controllers and RF Guitar-to-MIDI controller.
I mean it could act as a temporary switch in one preset, and as a toggle (latching) switch in another.

Momentary:
assign to each switches's ON and OFF positions the MIN MAX parameter's values ==> Easy to do with AF3 with modifiers

Toggle:
assign the same MIN MAX values (+ the starting one, when a preset is loaded) but they are then toggled instead, Push-ON Push-OFF (latching) behaviour, instead of momentary Push-ON Release-OFF.
In other words AXE FXIII should optionally toggle MAX e MIN parameter's values each time it receives e.g. a push CC#xx 127,
ignoring the release commands (CC#xx 0).

With my 2 previous generations of equipments (more than 15 years) it was easy to exploit this possibility very easily, but it seems impossible today with my new beast AF3 (I hope to be wrong):

Alternative solution:
We could exploit Scene/Channels capabilities to perform same result. Just allow to a momentary MIDI switch to momentary OR toggle switch between 2 scenes and 2 channels.

Main use (but not only) is for SOLOs: e.g. when I start a solo, I need a single push to increase a little the volume, the compression, increasing gain of a ducked delay and so on. Release my pedal and forgot it while performing my solo and running on the stage, then push the same switch again when solo is ended.
I was a little amazed that in Fractal manuals the word "solo" for changing parameters is mentioned only once, for front panel knobs.

NOTE: please don't say that it's a controller's job, here some of the reasons:

1) If I program the latching behavior in the controller it could be in the "on" position at the new preset start, I need to avoid it​

2) I have 2 controllers, both aren't able to program MIDI switches behaviour (momentary/latching) by preset/PC, one of them is a Guitar-to-MIDI radio controller that sends PCs via RF, AFAIK no Guitar-to-MIDI in the market have this switches' programmability possibility. I have to rely on Fractal intelligence then​

3) But even if they were able, it will be a very tricky job to do to match Presets settings in all controllers with the Presets in AF3. Impractical. Is much better to set everything in AF3.​

4) Even if they can and even if I program them accurately, each controller cannot know what the other did, only AF3 knows which Preset it is currently running, that's why is its job to act accordingly. Other less powerful rack systems do it.​

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Edit:

Here there are two examples of guitar digital multieffects that do (did) what I'm asking many years ago GX-700 and more recently the GT-PRO.
We are referring to BOSS/ROLAND, they were... leaders in the rack mounting multieffects (now my choice is for Fractal).

Please see the images, "Source mode" refers to the expected action from each switch,
what they call "normal" is the exact copy of MIDI command received by the controller, e.g. toggling from CC#xx 127 (push) and CC#xx 0 (release).

"Toggle" is what I'm asking, it changes a momentary switch into a latching behaviour, by triggering events from each push command only, simply ignoring the release CC.

Their "assign" panel is similar to our "modifiers panel", where they can change, trigger & toggle any parameter (ANY) and blocks ON/OFF status. In each preset they can choose which assign to activate, even temporary and toggle together for same switch.
I think Fractal could add this in our Modifiers panel obtaining even more flexiblity than Roland.

I can garantee it works fine with ALL foot controllers (from the cheaper Behringer FCB1010 and above), even from my Guitar-to-Midi controller.
No need to use specific controllers, the big CPUs, the intelligence, communication pivot are in the rack, as they should be IMHO.

If you need more information just ask !

 

[unix-guy]

I also would like that block themselves have their ON/OFF status be changed by modifiers.

Assign a modifier to the Bypass of the block.

Main use is for SOLOs: e.g. when I start a solo, I need a single push to increase a little the volume, the compression, increasing gain of a ducked delay and so on, sometimes to turn ON or OFF a block.

Try using Scenes. That's a big part of what they are for...

I was a little amazed that in Fractal manuals the word "solo" for changing parameters is mentioned only once, for front panel knobs.

Why would the manual tell you something about solos?

NOTE: please don't say that it's a controller's job.

Ok... But (as I mentioned in your other thread), it is.

 

[BobXX]

Assign a modifier to the Bypass of the block.

You're right, It works. Thank you !

Try using Scenes. That's a big part of what they are for...

Can they be togggled ? Can channels be toggled ? Tell me yes and I will be very happy !

Why would the manual tell you something about solos?

Because it's a part of the guitarist job that needs the equipment to follow.
Push and start solo, when it ends push the switch again, and the equipment must do things accordingly.
No mention of functions like this.

Ok... But (as I mentioned in your other thread), it is.

I don't know if there are in the market MIDI foot controllers that allow to program differently (momentary/latching) its switches in each Preset/PC.
In my setup I have foot controllers and MIDI radio controller that are unable to do it (AFAIK none Guitar-to MIDI available in the market can do it), and even if they could, I assume they cannot know the "Program" currently active in AF3 if set by the other controller, so they will mess things up.
It should a so simple task to do in the super powerful AF3... even very old equipments do it.
Hope they will add it.

 

[Rex]

Can they be togggled ? Can channels be toggled ? Tell me yes and I will be very happy !

Yes.

Because it's (soloing) a part of the guitarist job that needs the equipment to follow.
Push and start solo, when it ends push the switch again, and the equipment must do things accordingly.
No mention of functions like this.

The manual tells you all about how to change sounds. Whether you’re switching from chorus to solo, or from intro to riff to verse to chorus to break, it’s all the same thing — just changes.

 

[unix-guy]

Can they be togggled ? Can channels be toggled ? Tell me yes and I will be very happy !

They can quite easily with the FCs.

There's no midi for Scene Toggle or Channel Toggle. However, there is Scene Select and Channel Select.

Program your switches to send the CC to select one (scene or channel) for ON and another (scene or channel) for OFF. Simple toggle... Managed by your midi controller.

 

[unix-guy]

n very old equipments do it.

Curious what specific equipment does this. All midi controlled equipment I have ever used works the same way: it gets a CC and operates based on that CC# and data value.

 

[BobXX]

Program your switches to send the CC to select one (scene or channel) for ON and another (scene or channel) for OFF. Simple toggle... Managed by your midi controller.

Thanks Unix-guy.
It requires a latching switch then, right?
And the momentary/latching behaviour seems cannot be differently set presets by preset

 

[Rex]

Thanks Unix-guy.
It requires a latching switch then, right?
And the momentary/latching behaviour seems cannot be differently set presets by preset

That depends on your MIDI controller. If it’s smart enough to change momentary/latching behavior on its own, then all you need is a momentary switch. If it’s not...

 

[BobXX]

Curious what specific equipment does this. All midi controlled equipment I have ever used works the same way: it gets a CC and operates based on that CC# and data value.

[ Edit: added printscreen of GT-PRO editor ]

I know I'm a high demanding guitarists (and sometimes a "pain in the... axe" ).

Here there are two guitar digital multieffects that did it 15 years ago (GX-700) and more recently the GT-PRO,
the ones (I have two GT-PRO actually) I'm substituting with 1 AXE FXIII MKII turbo + probably 1 FM9 as backup unit.

We are talking about BOSS and ROLAND. Not exactly niche product, probably the leading ones, years ago.
So we aren't martians...

What they call "normal" is the exact copy of MIDI switch physical behaviour.
"Toggle" is what I'm asking, it changes a momentary switch into a latching behaviour, by triggering events from each CC#xx 127 (push) command only, instead of toggling from CC#xx 0 (release) and CC#xx 127 (push).
Their "assign" panel is similar to our "modifiers panel", in the panel they can change, trigger & toggle any parameter (really ANY) and blocks ON/OFF status. In each preset can be activated the ones needed.

I can garantee it works fine with ALL foot controllers (from the cheaper Behringer FCB1010 and above), even from my Guitar-to-Midi controller.
No need to use specific controllers, the big CPUs and the intelligence are in the rack.

 

[BobXX]

That depends on your MIDI controller. If it’s smart enough to change momentary/latching behavior on its own, then all you need is a momentary switch. If it’s not...

Rex, in my post I have explained that:
"I have 2 controllers, both aren't able to program MIDI switches behaviour (momentary/latching) by preset/PC, one of them is a Guitar-to-MIDI radio controller that sends PCs via RF, AFAIK no Guitar-to-MIDI in the market have this switches' programmability possibility.
But even if they were, it will be a very tricky job to do to match Presets settings in all controllers with the Presets in AF3.
And even if they can and even if I program them accurately, each controller cannot know what the other one did, only AF3 knows which Preset it is currently running, that's why is its job to act accordingly. That's why other old systems do it, easily."

I've spent 3,000 Euros for AF3 not to be said "your other equipment isn't enough smart" whilst old equipments did what I'm asking for.
I think now I own the top in the market product, with CPUs enough to manage all "basic" things like these.

It seems sometimes that the designers has forgotten the practical guitarists' point of view.
Another IMHO umbelievable missing thing is that I cannot merge incoming MIDI in the OUT connector, de facto dividing the MIDI flow.
Other system has that option, even FM3 and FM9 do it !!!
So I need to purchase a merge box to (re)unite what my AF3 keeps accurately divided...
It seems AF3 doesn't want to communicate intelligently with the "others" companions in the rack.

 

[unix-guy]

Thanks Unix-guy.
It requires a latching switch then, right?
And the momentary/latching behaviour seems cannot be differently set presets by preset

It's not sending ON or OFF like a switch in a circuit. It's sending a midi value on each press.

So it doesn't need to be latching (and probably is not) because it's up to the device(s) receiving the midi to process that value.

 

[unix-guy]

The Normal/Toggle behavior shown in the manual page you showed would need to be a per-modifier setting in the Axe Fx.

There is a setting for that for external switches (physical, not midi) called Virtual Toggle.

It's an interesting idea... I don't know if it's something Fractal would choose to implement or not

 

[unix-guy]

Also, I was initially confused by your repeated references to midi "80h"... I think you mean you're sending value of 80 hexadecimal?

Midi values are usually referenced in decimal between 0-127 (128 values). The decimal equivalent of 80 hex is 128.

 

[BobXX]

You're right, I'll correct and change hex 80h ==> 7Fh to dec 127 for better understanding of my wish, Thanx !

 

[Rex]

I've spent 3,000 Euros not to be said "your other equipment isn't enough smart" whilst old equipments did what I'm asking for.
I think now I own the top in the market product, with CPUs enough to manage all "basic" things like these.

I meant to offense to your other equipment, and I offer it my apologies.

It seems sometime that the designers has forgotten the practical guitarists' point of view.

As you dig into Fractal gear, you'll find many ways in which the designers carefully considered the practical guitarist's point of view.


I understand your wish. As it stands today, the following is true:

That depends on your MIDI controller. If it’s smart enough to change momentary/latching behavior on its own, then all you need is a momentary switch.

 

[BobXX]

I meant to offense to your other equipment, and I offer it my apologies.


As you dig into Fractal gear, you'll find many ways in which the designers carefully considered the practical guitarist's point of view.


I understand your wish. As it stands today, the following is true:

No need to apologies Rex, we are both guitarists taking our art with both technical and emotional issues that triggers and toggle each other...
My controllers weren't offended though, they are simple and rely on Fractal intelligence (see below main foot ones and theirs backup).

I love Fractal. Sometimes (repeat: sometimes) it seems they forgot the guitarists' point of view.
What I consider basic things, typical in other systems, useful (I used them in +400 concerts, 3+2 CDs) are simply missing, impossible or need tricky workarounds whilst they could be easier.

Please read again my requirements, I don't think there are Guitar-to-MIDI controllers in the market that can do what I ask, differently presets by preset. Anyway I need from it other more guitar related things first.
Even if there are foot controllers able to do it, from a foot controller I need 10 PC pedal shaped switches (not button ones) and you will find the selections already tragically shortened.

I have even built and programmed my own foot controller... (upper side of second image) but I never even thought of implementing that function in the controller for the reasons mentioned in my specs (e.g. coexistence of foot and RF controllers and programming convenience).

MIDI games and intelligence must be put in the rack, after the conjunction point of all controllers, not before.
In this point I already use MIDI Solutions "Event Processor" for the more crazy things + the MIDI intelligence of my main rack equipment.
AF3 is "main" for audio but not for MIDI, and unfortunately is relegated to the last node in the MIDI chain (see Merge IN in OUT connector problem).

IMHO AXE FXIII beast deserves to conquer the pivot role also in MIDI area, with some simple MIDI improvement, that e.g. old Roland Boss rack systems already had. Fractal systems have plenty of power for it.

Hope Fractal will put some effort in this area, I have a lot of ideas about it, but first I need to solve these more stringent needs.

 

[Rex]

No need to apologies Rex, we are both guitarists taking our art with both technical and emotional issues that triggers and toggle each other...
My controllers weren't offended though, they are simple and rely on Fractal intelligence (see below main foot ones and theirs backup).

I love Fractal. Sometimes (repeat: sometimes) it seems they forgot the guitarists' point of view.
What I consider basic things, typical in other systems, useful (I used them in +400 concerts, 3+2 CDs) are simply missing, impossible or need tricky workarounds whilst they could be easier.

Please read again my requirements, I don't think there are Guitar-to-MIDI controllers in the market that can do what I ask, differently presets by preset. Anyway I need from it other more guitar related things first.
Even if there are foot controllers able to do it, from a foot controller I need 10 PC pedal shaped switches (not button ones) and you will find the selections already tragically shortened.

I have even built and programmed my own foot controller... (upper side of second image) but I never even thought of implementing that function in the controller for the reasons mentioned in my specs (e.g. coexistence of foot and RF controllers and programming convenience).

MIDI games and intelligence must be put in the rack, after the conjunction point of all controllers, not before.
In this point I already use MIDI Solutions "Event Processor" for the more crazy things + the MIDI intelligence of my main rack equipment.
AF3 is "main" for audio but not for MIDI, and unfortunately is relegated to the last node in the MIDI chain (see Merge IN in OUT connector).

IMHO AXE FXIII beast deserves to conquer the pivot role also in that area, with some simple MIDI improvement, that e.g. old Roland Boss rack systems already had. Fractal systems have plenty of power for it.

Hope Fractal will put some effort in this area, I have a lot of ideas about it, but first I need to solve these more stringent needs.

No worries.

I agree that it would be good if the MIDI implementation were a bit more robust.

Have you looked into the RJM Mastermind? They're not cheap, but they're wickedly capable. For much less money, maybe you can find a used Digitech PMC10.

 

[sean.e]

I don't think a PMC10 would allow a single switch within the same bank to be both momentary and toggle. In different banks, yes -- they would be two different patches with the same MIDI commands but one patch configured for momentary and one patch configured toggle. (I wrote a Windows editor for the PMC10 back in the day.)

Bernhard Wagner of Sonar was still using a PMC10 as of a few months ago.

 

[Rex]

I don't think a PMC10 would allow a single switch within the same bank to be both momentary and toggle. In different banks, yes -- they would be two different patches with the same MIDI commands but one patch configured for momentary and one patch configured toggle. (I wrote a Windows editor for the PMC10 back in the day.)

Bernhard Wagner of Sonar was still using a PMC10 as of a few months ago.

Dunno. It’s been years since I used one. I remember that, in its day, it could do things no other MIDI foot controller could do.

I think I still have a copy of your editor on a hard drive somewhere.

 

[BobXX]

one patch configured for momentary and one patch configured toggle.

Thanks Sean you for trying to help.
That's is the behaviour I need, but I'm asking those things to be programmed in my rack, not in my MIDI controllers (I have 2 foot and 1 radio simultaneously). I cannot ask all of them to do these things, and I cannot ask them to tell each other the current patch in use,
so they don't know what Preset is currently activated, only the AXE knows it...
so it should be a central unit job, like more than one previous systems I got did.

I can play with MIDI data after the conjunction of my MIDI controllers (in the rack).
In this point I actually have a MIDI Event Processor (by MIDI Solutions) where I can program the crazy things...
Is has a poor PIC processor and very few memory, tricky to program, I'd like not to use it for this that I consider a "basic" feature, not enough crazy .
Hope FRACTAL will do it.
It's really simple and very practical to have it in the modifiers menu, this is the right place where to play with MIDI controllers actions and behaviour.