Time to throw in the towel...

there may be something else going on as well. the sound coming out of the pa may be fizzy - it's the one variable (alart from raising your cab off the floor) you need to take into account. i downloaded your patch and through my monitors, it definitely sounds quite toppy. i changed the mono cab to a stereo one and dropped in the AX mix and the TV mix with no mics. definitely has more body, a smoother top and a more punch. if you can send this to your pa, then you may get a better out front sound. but get your singer to play through your rig, walk out front and listen. if it's too toppy, get on the desk and sort it out! :)

btw - as you have the pa on out 1 and the cab on out 2, you can listen to either one individually, so when soundchecking, turn down your cab so you can hear what's coming out of the pa isolated. and then check your onstage sound with out 1 turned down. the soundman can then blend the two as needed
 
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I don't use the PA at all for my sound.. it's all from Out2 via a 2x12 cab.
 
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ah sorry. didn't read the thread properly! i saw the cab in the layout and assumed you did.

carry on!
 
Si. said:
Well, as you may or may not have seen, my rig is up for sale.

I've gigged my Axe-FX a handful of times now (about 6-7), and I'm still not happy with it. It Sounds good at home and at practices, but when I get it into a live venue it just sounds pants and I can't seem to get to the bottom of why. Last night for example I was using paulmapps tweaked version of one of my presets for the first time live and when out in the crowd it sounds harsh, thin and nasty. It always sounds OK at a rehearsal, ballsy and full, but get it into a pub, and YACK!. Last night it was blown away by our singer's TSL combo. It's so annoying that at a rehearsal it sounds so good, but live it sounds bad.. I can't understand it.

I'm sure it's probably me, and I'm sure that someone else with the exact same setup could probably get it to sound amazing, but i just don't have the skills it seems.
Click to expand...

So be it- sell it and try something else.
 
Sim - the AX and TV are a good call.. I like these fellas cos they have good body to them..

that said, I think Si's 2x12 is not FRFR..
so I'm assuming that Si should have his cab sims turned off..

Si - the cab sims are off yes??
 
6-7 gigs is not a lot of time spent with the Axe... your just learning how to integrate it into your group. Your just about there and with a little more time investment your other guitar player will be looking or rather listing to your Axe and thinking I need one of those.
 
wtfover said:
So be it- sell it and try something else.
Click to expand...

hmmm......
I see Si's post as a very frustrated last cry for help before finally giving in
rather than a "screw you guys I'm outta here"

I reckon we can coax him toward his utopian tone..
even if right now he's finding it a little elusive..

Si - keep the faith.. we'll get you there..
if you want.. PM me with your number and I'll give you a call..
 
Thanks Clarky... Sims are ON, but I'm using an FX loop block to send to OUT2 before the CAB block. I'm sure you would love to see the delights of Newcastle.. why not come up for a pink and an AxeFX training session :)

It's defiantly not a "screw you" thread.. it's a cry for help thread :)

I've only done 6ish gigs with the AxeFX II, but I have gigged a Stand and an Ultra in the past.
 
If you're playing in a room and the guitar cab is not mic'd, so that the only source of your sound is coming off the stage via a guitar cabinet, then you need to angle your speakers (as much as it is possible to do so) so that the audience's ears are at the same off-axis angle to your speakers as your own ears are.
Guitar cabinets are very directional and the tone that comes out of them on-axis is much brighter than the tone that you'll hear off-axis.
Most of us don't set up with our speakers pointed right at our ears because it sounds harsh and thin.
We usually set up with our speakers significantly below ear level and dial in our tones based on that listening position "sweet-spot".
If you want the audience to hear something analogous to what you're hearing you need to have their ears at or close to the same off-axis angle as yours.
This is an ongoing problem for all guitarists since the electric guitar amplifier was first created.

There are at least 3 commercial products I know of that are designed to mitigate this issue and 1 free diy solution.
1. The Weber Beam Blocker
This is a 3" diameter hard plastic dome that is placed in front of the speaker driver's dust cap with the curved part of the some facing the driver.
It has the effect of reducing the high freq content directly in front of the speaker but it also redirects the highs out to the sides as well.
Your off-axis tone becomes a little bit brighter and your on-axis tone gets a little bit less bright.
IMO The Beam Blockers change my sweet-spot" tone too much, making it sound more like the on-axis tone.
There are also weird phasing artifacts that I think I hear when using the Beam blockers.
Not for me.
2. The Amp Lounge Tone Bra
This is a round 4" diameter disc of 3/4" acoustical foam that sits in front of the dust cap.
It darkens the on-axis tone and leaves the off-axis tone as is.
At the moment, I'm using these on a couple of my own cabs and they do seem to help me have a more consistent tone at various listening angles.
3. The Deeflex
This is a weird piece of plastic you place in front of your cab that's supposed to redirect the highs from the centre of the cabinet more evenly around the listening space.
I've never heard one but it looks like it would have an effect somewhat like the Beam Blockers.
So not for me.
4. The Jay Mitchell Foam "Donut" (free diy)
This is supposedly the best way to do it for a guitar speaker.
Do a Google search for "guitar directivity modifier" and you'll find all the instructions.
I've never been able to get this to work because I can't seem to find a suitable supplier for the right type of foam here in Canada since McMaster-Carr won't deliver here.
So that's why I'm using the Tone Bras.
If anybody out there knows of a good source for this type of foam in Canada please PM me.

The ultimate solution is to use a speaker cab that has better directivity characteristics but these are all designed for FRFR audio sources.
So if you go this way you'll have to start using the Axe's Cab Block to simulate the tone of real guitar cabinets.
I'm currently on the waiting list for 2 of the new Atomic CLR powered wedges.
Supposedly their directivity characteristics are really good and they will sound the same over a pretty wide listening angle.
They can be used just like guitar speakers on stage when the venue doesn't have a P.A., or they can be used as monitors while you send the same signal to the F.O.H.

So, you would have had the same issues using your Marshall amp as you're having with your Axe rig.
 
Fletcher–Munson curve...

...

You're already selling the rig, but a healthy mid-boost at the end of the patch is highly recommend. I don't have them on any recording patches, but I have a mid hump boost at the end of EVERY live patch I use and find it to be incredibly important.

Those real-life tube amps get nice and midrangy the louder you have them.
 
I'm not an expert on this matter in the slightest (I've never gigged with my axe) but I can say just from seeing Animals as Leaders at 4 different venues (indoor and outdoor) its not the axe fx. They always sound HUGE live and all they use is the II and a GT1000FX through some port city cabs I think.
 
Si. said:
Amp wise, I'm going through a Matrix GT800FX into a V30 loaded 2x12.
Click to expand...

I had the same issue. I went back to using a tube power amp and it solved my problem. (IMHO) If you are going to go with a solid state amp, the you should go with full range speakers to reap the benefit.

Traditional cabinets sound best with real tube power amps (Axe-FX II included of course).

Once again, MHO, but I am speaking from my own personal experience.
 
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Sharka said:
I had the same issue. I went back to using a tube power amp and it solved my problem. (IMHO) If you are going to go with a solid state amp, the you should go with full range speakers to reap the benefit.

Traditional cabinets sound best with real tube power amps (Axe-FX II included of course).

Once again, MHO, but I am speaking from my own personal experience.
Click to expand...

I would'nt totally agree on that. I had a Matchless Phoenix 2xEL34 top and two semi-Thiele tuned cab's. One with a EV-12 and the other with an Celestion Gold. Agressive and silky when blended.
Then threw the Matchless out in favour of the 1000fx.
Missed some of the EF86 wild "VOX" attack and overtones - but very fast got accustomed to the "speed" and more important, that drummer and bassist applaused "where were you before".
 
Si. said:
I'm not using a PA or sound guy, it's straight from a 2x12 cab.
Click to expand...

I would say this is the Problem.
The Mix you make to sound good through a 2x12 is Colored.
I went all FRFR cause I do not want a Marshall Cab coloring my Fender, Mesa, Diezel, etc... sound.
I use a RCF nx 12-sma, I have also used a QSC K10. (The QSC required the Ext Sub switch ON to be totally Flat)
I think you get the "Cab in the Room" Feel if you realize that the CAB in the Room is really the Fletcher–Munson curve that you are hearing.
FM Curve Wiki
My Old Tube Amps sounded good Live cause I turned em up loud to get them to sound good.
If you want the Cab in the Room, then you still need to Annoy Your Bandmates with some Volume.
The RCF Monitor gives me the added advantage of having only my side of the Stage Cranking, so I slight angle away from the Band and Crank it Up!
With FRFR, I have the ability to turn it down if the Stage is too small, I lose a little of that Feel though...

Here is the Biggest Advantage.
My FRFR mix and Front of House Mix sound Identical. Because I have tweaked to a Flat Mix.
Another option is to setup at Band Practice and play in front of your PA.
I started this way because our old practice area was small, so I did not use my Monitor at Practice.
So EVERYTHING that I tweaked was the Audiences perspective.
I typically will not adjust something at Practice only based on what my Monitor is telling me, I first run out front of my PA and make sure I am hearing the Same thing there before I make any EQ or Volume Adjustments, cause my FRFR Monitor is a Mostly "Me" Mix.

Good Luck with Whatever you choose.
 
I was running into a similar problem. The other guitar player in my band has a DSL, and he was just killing my setup. I was recording practices so I could see how I was fairing, and it wasn't well. I thought it sounded great where I was standing, but the recordings from across the room were telling me otherwise.

The DSL is basically a JCM 800 variation, so I started by switching my amp sim to a JCM 800, and that helped. Something about that amp just sits right in the mix.

The other thing was that I was juts being too polite. I'm always trying to keep my volume at a respectable level. My other guitar player has been doing this longer than I, and he is partially deaf. His amp was loud, and the reality was, his volume alone was just crushing me. I'm not suggesting you make it a volume war, but it could just be as simple as that.

The other thing that helped me out was comparing the patches I was building to the real thing. I own a DSL, so I played my Axe Fx side by side with the DSL getting them to sound the same. If you own a Jubilee, it may help you out to do just that. Build some Jubilee patches and compare them to the real thing. I also own a Jubilee, and I can say that the Jubilee sim in the Axe is spot on to my amp. If anything, maybe you can justify keeping the Axe Fx if you can get it to sound exactly like your real amp.

Depending on what effects you are using in the Axe, you could also take a break from the amp sims part of it, hook up via the 4 cable method with your Jubilee head, and try that for a while.

FYI - When I was running the amp/cab setup, I was using an ART SLA amp into a Marshall cab. I have since switched to FRFR, and am using the CLR. The amp/cab thing did work well while I used it, but I did struggle with it. Comparing what I was doing with a real amp is what helped the most. Sometimes recording things with a 57 and listening back with a fresh set of ears helped also. In fact, whenever I make changes to my patches now, I always record before and after and listen to it later with a fresh set of ears.

Duh, I almost forgot. The DSL that I was competing with has the deep switch. I don't know the exact way to duplicate that with the Axe, but an EQ with a 3db to 6db boost at 110 helped. Give that a shot.
 
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Kruegmeister said:
I would say this is the Problem.
The Mix you make to sound good through a 2x12 is Colored.
I went all FRFR cause I do not want a Marshall Cab coloring my Fender, Mesa, Diezel, etc... sound.
I use a RCF nx 12-sma, I have also used a QSC K10. (The QSC required the Ext Sub switch ON to be totally Flat)
I think you get the "Cab in the Room" Feel if you realize that the CAB in the Room is really the Fletcher–Munson curve that you are hearing.
FM Curve Wiki
My Old Tube Amps sounded good Live cause I turned em up loud to get them to sound good.
If you want the Cab in the Room, then you still need to Annoy Your Bandmates with some Volume.
The RCF Monitor gives me the added advantage of having only my side of the Stage Cranking, so I slight angle away from the Band and Crank it Up!
With FRFR, I have the ability to turn it down if the Stage is too small, I lose a little of that Feel though...

Here is the Biggest Advantage.
My FRFR mix and Front of House Mix sound Identical. Because I have tweaked to a Flat Mix.
Another option is to setup at Band Practice and play in front of your PA.
I started this way because our old practice area was small, so I did not use my Monitor at Practice.
So EVERYTHING that I tweaked was the Audiences perspective.
I typically will not adjust something at Practice only based on what my Monitor is telling me, I first run out front of my PA and make sure I am hearing the Same thing there before I make any EQ or Volume Adjustments, cause my FRFR Monitor is a Mostly "Me" Mix.

Good Luck with Whatever you choose.
Click to expand...

I only make my tone with in-ears at home. How on Earth could I possibly get the sound from FOH right - (considering that the PA and the sound-guy are within reasonable quality).

Rely on wedges or anything else - noway.
 
Sharka said:
I had the same issue. I went back to using a tube power amp and it solved my problem. (IMHO) If you are going to go with a solid state amp, the you should go with full range speakers to reap the benefit.

Traditional cabinets sound best with real tube power amps (Axe-FX II included of course).

Once again, MHO, but I am speaking from my own personal experience.
Click to expand...

hmmmm......

I drive a pair of Marshall 1960b cabs from a GT1000FX
and it sounds like it'll start wars... and finish 'em...

I know it's a personal taste thing..
but I can't agree with you on this one..
 
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