Still struggling with the ac30tb model

FractalAudio said:
I spent the day looking into this. As it turns out the TB model is wrong because the cathode follower values weren't entered (Preamp Comp is 0.0). Unfortunately you can't just turn that up to fix it as the CF Ratio should be 1.96 and that's outside the allowed range. So the next firmware release will have this fixed and will expand the range to allow the required CF Ratio value. While I was at it I added a "Class-A 30W Bright" model and re-matched the existing models to our reference amp.

In the interim you can get close by setting Preamp Comp to 75%, CF Time to 3.7 ms and CF Ratio to 1.0. Xfrmr Match should be reduced as well since I realized that the typical Celestion Blue speakers have a lower voice coil resistance than I used in the calculations. Set it to 0.8 and adjust to taste from there. There's a bunch of other small changes I made but those will get you in the ballpark.
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Awesome. Just brilliant support... Thx Cliff. Really impressed
 
FractalAudio said:
I spent the day looking into this. As it turns out the TB model is wrong because the cathode follower values weren't entered (Preamp Comp is 0.0). Unfortunately you can't just turn that up to fix it as the CF Ratio should be 1.96 and that's outside the allowed range. So the next firmware release will have this fixed and will expand the range to allow the required CF Ratio value. While I was at it I added a "Class-A 30W Bright" model and re-matched the existing models to our reference amp.

In the interim you can get close by setting Preamp Comp to 75%, CF Time to 3.7 ms and CF Ratio to 1.0. Xfrmr Match should be reduced as well since I realized that the typical Celestion Blue speakers have a lower voice coil resistance than I used in the calculations. Set it to 0.8 and adjust to taste from there. There's a bunch of other small changes I made but those will get you in the ballpark.
Click to expand...

I was hoping for you to respond with a "try this and that settings", but this is much much better and beyond expectation!!! Looking forward to try these settings, and I'm mostly glad that I was not going crazy and the model was actually a bit off, tells me my ears are still working!!
 
grape said:
Thanks Cliff for your seemingly un-ending dedication to this effort.

So what is the Class-A 30W Bright model? I assume it's a variation on the AC30 (non-top boost) but brighter?
And the existing models are based on two separate amps (AC30 and AC30TB)? I'm just a little confused b/c the quote says "amp" (singular).

In any event, I look forward to playing with the new model as well as the re-matched models.
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I'm assuming the reference amp is an ac30tb where you have the normal channel, normal channel with bright switch on and top boost channel, so in the end it is 1 amp with 3 modes
 
I went through all the Vox based models and Morgans as well and the Wrecker models and all seem to have Preamp Comp and Cathode Follower set to 0.00.

I don't know anything about amps but maybe they are wrong too?
 
jeppekristoffer said:
I went through all the Vox based models and Morgans as well and the Wrecker models and all seem to have Preamp Comp and Cathode Follower set to 0.00.

I don't know anything about amps but maybe they are wrong too?
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Only the TB model has a cathode follower, the other AC-30 models do not. Morgans and Trainwrecks don't have cathode followers.

What do you mean by "Cathode Follower set to 0.00"? Where are you seeing that parameter. There is no parameter named that.
 
For what it's worth I thought your clip sounded good.

I always thought "edge of breakup" meant that you're clean when picking lightly and driven when picking harder. F.ex. EDGE channel on Mesa amps etc. Some people use that phrase to determine "Edge's guitar tone".

Kind of like the second preset in this clip:
https://m.soundcloud.com/clark-kent-job/ml-class-a-preset-cab-bundles
(ML Class-A Grit SC)

I really wouldn't want to say this as it's a bit discouraging but when talking about guitarists that use somewhat clean sounds you really have to imitate them with your hands as well if you're trying to copy their sound. There have been some similar requests out here for f.ex. David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler and f.ex. Slash.

When I create clips that sound like f.ex. Petrucci I completely change my picking style or Frusciante I change my attitude and don't care about wrong notes but just concentrate on smacking the hell out of my strat. Even then I don't sound just like them. It requires a lot of skill to imitate someone like that.
 
grape said:
I assume you meant you understand why the Edge puts the delay before the amp
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Yes, that's what I meant, at the end of his effects chain, which includes his delay and before his amp. Obviously, in the real-world, nothing can come after the amp.

I don't believe it's the delay itself that drives the amp. it's the pre-amp in the SDD-3000 that drives the amp.
 
Toopy14 said:
I don't believe it's the delay itself that drives the amp. it's the pre-amp in the SDD-3000 that drives the amp.
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This is just getting into semantics as the preamp is part of the delay pedal, so it's basically one and the same.

Fortunately in the Axe Fx we are lucky to have the preamp extracted out into a standalone drive block.
 
dbun said:
This is just getting into semantics as the preamp is part of the delay pedal, so it's basically one and the same.
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True, but it also depends on whether or not we're talking about the 2290 or SDD-3000. He may use the pre-amp of the SDD pedal though with the 2290 as well.

dbun said:
Fortunately in the Axe Fx we are lucky to have the preamp extracted out into a standalone drive block.
Click to expand...

Agreed! :)

More importantly, Edo is not crazy! ;-)
 
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Toopy14 said:
I don't believe it's the delay itself that drives the amp. it's the pre-amp in the SDD-3000 that drives the amp.
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Arg, I'm not referring to a drive pedal or pre-amp such as the SDD-3000. I'm talking about dotted 1/8 delays that are near the same volume as the direct guitar signal hitting the front of the amp. The direct signal + delays are "driving" the amp in a way that you would not get with just the direct guitar and a delay after the amp. It makes a difference with the Edge's typical sound but maybe not so with other styles where the direct and delays aren't in such proximity time and volume wise.
 
I have a question about the Deluxe Verb Model. While I was shooting IR's with a 65 deluxe reverb amp, I was noticing that the model in the axe seems to break up a bit sooner than the real one I was shooting IR's of. I'm not sure I remember the deluxe model doing that. Did anything change on the model of this amp, or am I just realizing this for the first time?

P.s. I understand amps can differ from each other, just an observation.
 
indeloon85 said:
I have a question about the Deluxe Verb Model. While I was shooting IR's with a 65 deluxe reverb amp, I was noticing that the model in the axe seems to break up a bit sooner than the real one I was shooting IR's of. I'm not sure I remember the deluxe model doing that. Did anything change on the model of this amp, or am I just realizing this for the first time?

P.s. I understand amps can differ from each other, just an observation.
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http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/deluxe-reverb-model-drive-gain.105330
 
FractalAudio said:
Only the TB model has a cathode follower, the other AC-30 models do not. Morgans and Trainwrecks don't have cathode followers.

What do you mean by "Cathode Follower set to 0.00"? Where are you seeing that parameter. There is no parameter named that.
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Sorry for starting confusion. That was absolutely not my intent. I thought that I could help.

I was talking about the CF COMP parameter as can be seen below in the advanced amp parameters.

My bad. Sorry.

IMAG4159_1.jpg
 
I don't do that very often , but this can I can not resist to thank a lot Cliff for his answer.
And this not only for the fact that we will pretty soon have a better (if possible !) model of the AC30 available. :D

I highly appreciate that Cliff can again and again take account of customer's comments, and recognize on the forum that there was something not optimal in his previous work.
It is a rare quality to recognize that everything can always be improved in listening the other people.

Of course the Axe FX II is a beautiful device, but it would be nothing without THIS KIND of dedication from Cliff.
The Axe FX II will not be what it is into the hands of other manager from other brands.
 
ML SOUND LAB said:
For what it's worth I thought your clip sounded good.

I always thought "edge of breakup" meant that you're clean when picking lightly and driven when picking harder. F.ex. EDGE channel on Mesa amps etc. Some people use that phrase to determine "Edge's guitar tone".

Kind of like the second preset in this clip:
https://m.soundcloud.com/clark-kent-job/ml-class-a-preset-cab-bundles
(ML Class-A Grit SC)

I really wouldn't want to say this as it's a bit discouraging but when talking about guitarists that use somewhat clean sounds you really have to imitate them with your hands as well if you're trying to copy their sound. There have been some similar requests out here for f.ex. David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler and f.ex. Slash.

When I create clips that sound like f.ex. Petrucci I completely change my picking style or Frusciante I change my attitude and don't care about wrong notes but just concentrate on smacking the hell out of my strat. Even then I don't sound just like them. It requires a lot of skill to imitate someone like that.
Click to expand...

I dot mean to sound cocky, but if you knew me and my background, I graduated at Berkelee with full scholarship and won the guitar dept. award 3 times, I play guitar, bass, drums, piano and cello, i've directed orchestras, I've recorded and performed with a few major artists and for tv shows in Italy and have been playing in U2 tributes throughout Europe for 15 years, so I'm not a bedroom player inquiring about pre vs post delay!
Said that, I totally share your point of view, I agree that a big part of the tone is always in the player's hands, and clearly we're talking about achieving a similar tone with all limitations we might have (in the specific case of the edge, I should remind you that he uses about 20 guitars per show, each one for a specific song because one might have the bridge pickup slightly higher than another for a specific song etc, and of course a strat with rw fingerboard tuned 1/2 step down with 11's is going to sound different from a strat with maple fb in standard tuning with 10's), and I'm trying to get there using only 4-5 guitars..
The thing is that, like you say, edge of break up means that picking harder drives the amp, and my problem with the ac30tb model is that even picking harder, the clean attack is still predominant, and that is awkward. We're talking about a subtle thing here, one that the average guitarist / listener wouldn't even notice, but since I know what a great piece of gear the axe is and what it's capable of, I knew something was wrong within the Vox model and I'm glad cliff has confirmed this and is working on the fix - and that's beyond sounding like the edge or else, the ultimate goal is sounding great as opposed to good!
 
manu68 said:
Very interesting thread.
I can't really help just because Edo is going to far from me.

But , as Edo is a very nice guy never taking the thing to him, i must precise some aspect.
(no problem with anybody, just to make the discussion more fluent ;) )

If The Edge himself had an accident and should be replaced on tour, I see probably only two guys able to do that within an minute.
Mick, which received for some weeks the visit on stage from The Edge during one of his gig,
and of course Edo.

Also, YES, Edo is THE specialist of U2 cover, and YES, he plays with Herdim pick and know what an AC30 sounds like in a U2 configuration.

If sceptical, some clic on YouTube and you will understand what I mean !

Great thread !!

@edo.
I hope you will find your path in direction of the perfect AC30TB ! :D
(I didn't read well your post and your precision about the herdim pick before posting myself)
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I agree. The two best U2 ears in this world after Edge are Mick and Edo. I agree with him here. The AC30 model is great, but it has always been difficult to get the precise core tone. I'm happy with my tone, but will post a clip so that Edo can say if he thinks it's any better. I have literally hundreds of hours invested in my AC30 model for U2.
 
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