Played my AxeFX through a real cab for the first time yesterday...

[Tommy Tempest]

With all the tone shaping options built into the Axe Fx, not sure why anyone would want to use cab sims through a guitar cab, but hey, whatever works. I just use the Output 2 Global EQ to tweak the desired tone through my guitar cabs. Translates to all presets, done.

Part of it for me may have been, I paid all this money and now I have to turn something off?LOL. Because I agree with you in the respect that I have to do a extra EQ and tone shaping to get my tone the way I want it. On the other side, coming from all tube rigs for years, all the factory presets sounded fake to me, right out of the box. They were either too harsh or too sterile. But once I figured out my settings, I do not miss one amp I've owned. And for once, in a live situation, I no longer have someone telling me they cannot hear my guitar, which translates mostly to proper EQing.

 

[zenaxe]

Your experience is the exact opposite of pretty much everyone else. Running cab sims through a real cab typically darkens things.

+1, your description reads like the exact reverse of reality not only with the AxeFxII but every single modeler I have ever used and I have been running these types of rigs for over a decade... It doesn't pass the logic test either, since a rig will pretty much never get brighter by enabling a cab sim unless that particular cab sim is super bad/unrealistic in it's high end response.... given that every guitar cab has high end roll off and the cab sim will only increase roll off, never amplify those freqs.

I would guess you have done something really odd in your setup or are mis-describing what you are hearing. For example if the cab sim has dips on two sides of a band it could make a particular band stand out by subtracting its neighbors rather than amplifying it.

You will probably get some people on this thread who enable cabs but TBH, those people are probably jumping through unnecessary hoops... if you are serious about really seeing what a Cab based rig can really do, it is worth the investment to dial up a preset from scratch without the cab sim. It has no business in a preset for a cab based rig, it is like having a plan where one step is "and then we get a lucky break". IMHO.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

+1, your description reads like the exact reverse of reality not only with the AxeFxII but every single modeler I have ever used and I have been running these types of rigs for over a decade... It doesn't pass the logic test either, since a rig will pretty much never get brighter by enabling a cab sim unless that particular cab sim is super bad/unrealistic in it's high end response.... given that every guitar cab has high end roll off and the cab sim will only increase roll off, never amplify those freqs.

I would guess you have done something really odd in your setup or are mis-describing what you are hearing. For example if the cab sim has dips on two sides of a band it could make a particular band stand out by subtracting its neighbors rather than amplifying it.

You will probably get some people on this thread who enable cabs but TBH, those people are probably jumping through unnecessary hoops... if you are serious about really seeing what a Cab based rig can really do, it is worth the investment to dial up a preset from scratch without the cab sim. It has no business in a preset for a cab based rig, it is like having a plan where one step is "and then we get a lucky break". IMHO.

Do you have an example of yours? Because I find it to be the opposite. I have to jump through hoops to get my Marshall. Fender, Mesa, Bogner tone to be accurate without matching cab sims. Could be I'm not using the typical guitar cab. I modified an Over-sized Mesa cab by removing the harsh Mesa voiced (Celestion) Vintage 30s and replacing with Celestion Creamback 65s, which is a totally different speaker.

 

[∞Fractals]

As mentioned, each player can decide for themselves which sounds best, but as a "real" cab player I am with FAS designer/founder in that the AXE FX wasn't designed to be used in the manner of cab emulation=on, and played through real cabs concurrently. That's just doubling the EQ effects of cabs. YMMV.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

As mentioned, each player can decide for themselves which sounds best, but as a "real" cab player I am with FAS designer/founder in that the AXE FX wasn't designed to be used in the manner of cab emulation=on, and played through real cabs concurrently. That's just doubling the EQ effects of cabs. YMMV.

With that said I would love to see the settings used by a "real" cab player that does not have cab sims turned on, to see why I hear sterile, less warm tones. It does not sound like real warm tube amp tone to me without it. Could be because I've been standing in front of the real thing at loud volumes for too long. To be clear, I am comparing my results in a live situation cranked to outside concert stage volume level. This could clearly be the difference in opinions, as so may users use the AXE for studio and home use.

 

[yek]

I use exactly the same presets for FR as "real" cab.
Only without the CAB when using a real cab.

(edited)

 

[∞Fractals]

I use exactly the same presets settings for FR as "real" cab.

I should add, that I too use the the cab emulation/IRs in the patch so that I can play them with headphones as desired. When I go to real cabs, I just flick global modelling=off. At some point I intend to try full FRFR someday (perhaps next year) to take advantage of all the toans available in the AXEFX.

I will add that enabling cabs eats up a fair amount of CPU.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

I use exactly the same presets settings for FR as "real" cab.

So are you or are you not using CAB Sims with FR? This is the part that I have been confused with from the beginning. However, I am extremely happy with my setup, but am using CAB Sims with my "real" guitar cab, because I just don't like the tone without it. As stated before, I match my CAB sim as close as possible to my "real" cab.
I want to mention @yek, your presets, that I have used, require minimal to NO adjustments for me. They cut through the mix better than all the others I have tried. And using yours as a template I have been able to get great warm tone and sustain, with no flubby, muddy, shrilly, piercing qualities.

 

[zenaxe]

If you are having trouble getting satisfying results with a real cab and no IR, you can try tuning the speaker resonance and associated settings in the amp block, also. Many people need to tweak that for a real cab for it to feel right. It might not be the only adjustment you need depending on what you are shooting for, but again for clarity/roll off issues adding another fixed, complex, EQ curve rarely does much for me. YMMV.

 

[Gilmourizing]

+1, your description reads like the exact reverse of reality not only with the AxeFxII but every single modeler I have ever used and I have been running these types of rigs for over a decade... It doesn't pass the logic test either, since a rig will pretty much never get brighter by enabling a cab sim unless that particular cab sim is super bad/unrealistic in it's high end response....

I have to respectfully disagree with @zenaxe to say that, in my understanding, the logic says exactly what @Tommy Tempest was describing: a double cab in series (simulation + real) would give a perception of a brighter sounding.

Check for example the frequency response for a Celestion Vintage 30:

When people talk about highs in guitar, they are mosttly talking about 3-5khz, that are relatively boosted by most guitar speaker.

The highs over 5k are so heavily cutted by guitar speaker (20-30dB) that we barely listen to them. They just stay as a cherry over the top. A double filter over them would lose some details but doesn´t change so much our perception of "highs"

Also we have to consider that the speaker cuts lows and mid-lows as well, giving a relative perception of a brighter sounding.

 

[∞Fractals]

Just keep in mind that a cabinet is not just a V30 in an anechoic chamber. Mine are in closed-backed Friedman cabs which impart their own resonances, then there is the room I practice in ...

The resonant Freq for a V30 as published by Celestion is 75hz. I've tried to sort it out for the cab without a lot of success.

 

[Keg8605]

This could be misread. IIRC you use an FXL block before the cab block right? I think what you mean though is you don't change the amp settings for the "real" cab at all.

At least that's how I run my patches. Set them up for FRFR and just put the fxl block right before the cab block.

 

[yek]

So are you or are you not using CAB Sims with FR? This is the part that I have been confused with from the beginning. However, I am extremely happy with my setup, but am using CAB Sims with my "real" guitar cab, because I just don't like the tone without it. As stated before, I match my CAB sim as close as possible to my "real" cab.
I want to mention @yek, your presets, that I have used, require minimal to NO adjustments for me. They cut through the mix better than all the others I have tried. And using yours as a template I have been able to get great warm tone and sustain, with no flubby, muddy, shrilly, piercing qualities.

With FR: yes, absolutely WITH cab sims.

 

[zenaxe]

I have to respectfully disagree with @zenaxe to say that, in my understanding, the logic says exactly what @Tommy Tempest was describing: a double cab in series (simulation + real) would give a perception of a brighter sounding.

Check for example the frequency response for a Celestion Vintage 30:

1. Technically, speakers do not amplify anything.
2. I'm speaking about the steep roll off region that is shown clearly on the curve. Sounds like you are defining it as a different region. Fair enough.
3. If your high freq hearing is such that two cabs in series sound more clear/present to you, knock yourself out. The roll off at the very high end sounds undesirable to me.

 

[Gilmourizing]

1. Technically, speakers do not amplify anything.
Yes, technically speakers are transducers, but I didn't say they were amplifiers anyway.

3. If your high freq hearing is such that two cabs in series sound more clear/present to you, knock yourself out. The roll off at the very high end sounds undesirable to me.
I agree that there are better options to get rid of the blanket without losing those highs.

My point was only that the "logic" explain what Tommy described.

 

[zenaxe]

1. Technically, speakers do not amplify anything.
Yes, technically speakers are transducers, but I didn't say they were amplifiers anyway.

3. If your high freq hearing is such that two cabs in series sound more clear/present to you, knock yourself out. The roll off at the very high end sounds undesirable to me.
I agree that there are better options to get rid of the blanket without losing those highs.

My point was only that the "logic" explain what Tommy described.

Only if you don't take into account any component above the roll off of the speaker which I don't think anyone is going to argue does not affect the tone. The shape of the roll off has a huge affect on the overall effect of the speaker. IMHO.

Also, note that even in your 'boosted' region; if you zoom in on a freq response across the region of interest you are going to get a zillion little "boosts" and "cuts". The first time you signal goes through this it will now be modified with this effect... now if you run another one of those in series, some of those are going to overlap to some degree and become either unrealistically deep, unrealistically sharp, or in most cases, at least partially nullify each other out to some extent. It is almost like intentionally inducing a phase error in some ways although not nearly as severe, again this will likely dull the sound in that region.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

Let's face it, it all boils down to the individual's human ear. Each of us hear similar but differently at the same time. So all the science in the world is not going to help someone that does or doesn't hear some anomaly. I have heard great guitar sounds and terrible guitar sounds. I never liked one factory preset sound, without adjusting it to my satisfaction. But of course this was due to the guitar I'm using, my pick attack, amp, cab, etc. IMHO, most guitar players have too much bass, because it sounds great when no one else is playing. But when you add bass, synth, drums and vocals, that bass in the guitar gets lost in the mix and translates into muddy tones. That's why when you listen to isolated guitar tracks, they usually sound bad. But then add the rest of the band and it becomes a signature sound.
Different Loudspeakers have different characteristics, as well as the type and size of the cabinet. Maybe, for me, my speaker and cab choice is more forgiving.

 

[axel]

With that said I would love to see the settings used by a "real" cab player that does not have cab sims turned on, to see why I hear sterile, less warm tones. It does not sound like real warm tube amp tone to me without it. Could be because I've been standing in front of the real thing at loud volumes for too long. To be clear, I am comparing my results in a live situation cranked to outside concert stage volume level. This could clearly be the difference in opinions, as so may users use the AXE for studio and home use.

I would suggest bypassing the cab block and experimenting with the Out 2 Global EQ. Also, I see you are using for a Mesa power amp, do you have power amp sims on or off? This can also affect the final result, your use of a cab block/sim may be partially compensating for power amp coloring.

 

[Tommy Tempest]

I'm using a Mesa 2:Fifty now for a power amp and power sims. Believe it or not there is very little if any coloring to the tone, of the Mesa 2:Fifty, other than some needed tube warmth. The 2:Fifty is a very clean sounding amp with little to no voicing compared to the Mesa 2:ninety I had.
I tried 3 different suggested SS amps and a Fryette Two/Fifty/Two. I just didn't like the sterile lifeless sound of any of the solid state amps. The Fryette sounded the best. But it was so close to my Mesa that I sent it back, since I own tons of Mesa gear already.
Since my rig is for live, I want to hear great tone from the stage from various angles and distances, as well as great tone from the FOH. Using the SS amps, they sounded ok close up. Move back 15 to 20 feet and they sounded like a buzz saw. So I went back to the 2:fifty. I'm still trying all sorts of settings. I have great stage sound so I used to mic the stage cab. But thanks to Yek's posted preset setup for FOH, I now go XLR direct and get the tones I want for FOH. I just tell the sound engineer to EQ a certain way for starters and tweak from there, and they get it every time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely happy with the AXE FX. But I read tons of posts here and see and try all the suggested methods. But I come right back to my, so called, wrong method.

 

[Bix]

I use a Fender mustang iii amp and definitely prefer it with cab sims on! Just sounds more better!