[not possible] Okay, I'll say it... a second Amp block!

supersonic182

supersonic182

Member
I don't care what the sacrifices are, if the FM3 could theoretically do it, then here's your 2-step plan to Stomping the Stompetition (do you see what I did there?):

1) Add second amp block to FM3
2) Win

People like myself that really stick to barebones amp sounds a lot of the time and just want that possibility shouldn't be left behind. RALLY, my friends! Let us be the force of change! Let the FM3 be the mobile superbeast that it is, and then some! You need only ask yourself: Why not?

I just super struggle to believe this is not possible. I also don't believe it would cannibalize any other product. If anything some people pass FAS altogether because they simply want to chase a dual amp tone and don't want to compromise by seeking it creatively with 1 amp block on the best modeling platform on Earth.

I don't need even low-quality reverb, I don't need more cabs or IR's... Just 1 more amp block even if it puts me at 99%.

Thank you, thank you very much.
 
Last edited:
I think yall underestimate how much processing power the Amp block requires compared to all the other blocks. The FM9 and Axe III have dual DSP chips for good reason. That extra processing doesn't come for free.

Realistically, if you want dual amp blocks, it's time for an upgrade.
 
Cliff tried having two amp blocks with lowered quality in the past after people requested it. People rejected it loudly.

It takes multiple loops through the code to provide the sound quality Fractal is famous for. The FM3 does not have the CPU to process two Amp blocks at once and maintain that quality in a short enough time to avoid doubling the latency. The FM9 and FX3 do, and if that’s a requirement then upgrading to the bigger siblings is your path to happiness.

Take the time to read Cliff’s tech notes, the Wiki which collects this information and his quotes from the forum and learn about the trade-offs needed to make these things work.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Take the time to read Cliff’s tech notes, the Wiki which collects this information and his quotes from the forum and learn about the trade-offs needed to make these things work.
Click to expand...
In fact I was searching the web for any documentation of this having been mulled over before I made this post. You seem to know something I don’t, care to point it out, InfiniteLoopDaddy? :)

I didn’t find a single trace of conversation about it save for people saying, “yeaarrp that’s just the way it is. If you want dual amps you’ll be wanting to spend 2 grand..”

Besides… what’s to say there isn’t a full-quality default, and the option for cut-back dual amps that consume your entire DSP? Who’s going to ‘reject’ that? Thats doesn’t compute for me. A stomp can do it, and quite honestly in 2023 it doesn’t really sound far off, but I will still give FAS the edge.
 
supersonic182 said:
In fact I was searching the web for any documentation of this having been mulled over before I made this post. You seem to know something I don’t, care to point it out, InfiniteLoopDaddy? :)

I didn’t find a single trace of conversation about it save for people saying, “yeaarrp that’s just the way it is. If you want dual amps you’ll be wanting to spend 2 grand..”

Besides… what’s to say there isn’t a full-quality default, and the option for cut-back dual amps that consume your entire DSP? Who’s going to ‘reject’ that? Thats doesn’t compute for me. A stomp can do it, and quite honestly in 2023 it doesn’t really sound far off, but I will still give FAS the edge.
Click to expand...
It was rejected by Cliff. He is the final arbiter of what is acceptable for his products.

I don't have a link but I remember the conversation.

It's possible it was lost when the original FM3 sub-forum got nuked...
 
supersonic182 said:
In fact I was searching the web for any documentation of this having been mulled over before I made this post. You seem to know something I don’t, care to point it out, InfiniteLoopDaddy? :)

I didn’t find a single trace of conversation about it save for people saying, “yeaarrp that’s just the way it is. If you want dual amps you’ll be wanting to spend 2 grand..”
Click to expand...
Search the wiki, there is more information specific to Fractal's system there than anywhere else.

Cliff said…
(FM3) "We could potentially do two amp blocks but at reduced quality and I don't want to do that. Part of the problem with other modelers is that they don't oversample enough (and use single-precision in places where you need double-precision). Then you get complaints of artifacts and ear fatigue and all the other things associated with inadequate sample rate and word length. The vast majority of users only use one amp block so we wanted to make something with one very high quality "Ares" amp block." [9]
Click to expand...

supersonic182 said:
Besides… what’s to say there isn’t a full-quality default, and the option for cut-back dual amps that consume your entire DSP? Who’s going to ‘reject’ that? Thats doesn’t compute for me. A stomp can do it, and quite honestly in 2023 it doesn’t really sound far off, but I will still give FAS the edge.
Click to expand...
Who? The owner and chief programmer/engineer.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Search the wiki, there is more information specific to Fractal's system there than anywhere else.

Cliff said…



Who? The owner and chief programmer/engineer.
Click to expand...
Well that’s interesting to see. Kind of surprising. I guess if that’s the case there could come a day that FM3 reaches a limit where it cannot possibly keep up with the Axe 3 models, and/or we’ll be shuffled to a new generation before we can move forward eh?

That first response of yours made it sound like there was a community outcry, and not Cliff or any engineers, so. Lol.
 
supersonic182 said:
that FM3 reaches a limit where it cannot possibly keep up with the Axe 3 models
Click to expand...
The FM3 won't reach a limit where it can't keep up with the Axe 3 models because it was never designed to compete with it, the FM3 complements it. It can generate sound that is equivalent within its limitations; If you create a preset on the FM3 and port it to the FX3 it'll sound the same, assuming the system settings are set the same.

The three models, FM3, FM9 and FX3 were designed as a family, they didn't fall into place, there was a system architectural design that made it happen:

"The entire product line was conceived years ago. The goal was to maximize the number of parts shared between products. The footswitch PC boards do three switches each. An FM3 has one board. An FC6 has two. An FM9 has three and an FC12 has four. All products use the same LCDs, encoders, side plates, etc., etc. This reduces cost and repair inventory. The FC6 and the FM3 are basically the same enclosure. The FC12 and FM9 are basically the same enclosure. This isn't a huge market. Margins are thin so you have to think of ways to minimize development and product costs. Parts bin methodology is the route we took on this generation." [1]
Click to expand...
and…
"The Axe-Fx III, FM3 and the other products in development all use the "Ares" architecture. This is a portable client-server architecture that allows easy porting of effects and models between hardware platforms. When we ported the Axe-Fx III models to the FM3 it involved nothing more than copying the file. We created the Ares architecture three years ago and all new products use it. It's a comprehensive hardware and software paradigm that allows any number of clients to communicate with a DSP server. The architecture supports multiple DSP cores. Clients can be located on the same core, a different core on the same IC, a different IC on the same board or on completely different hardware, i.e. an editor running on a PC or a foot controller. For example on the FM3 the UI is a client running on the ARM core. The Ares architecture is even processor agnostic. The Axe-Fx III uses TI DSPs while the FM3 uses Analog Devices. The Ares architecture was a huge undertaking with the ultimate goal of faster product development and easy synchronization of multiple product lines. It allows me to work on algorithms and new models and the engineers can then easily port those to the other products." [42]
Click to expand...

There will eventually be a day when all three units need to give way to the next generation, but from everything I've seen that is not even on the horizon.
 
TwinbornAxis said:
just curious as to if we have the cpu headroom why this isn’t possible.
Click to expand...
Well, apparently this is the unfortunate word on this in the wiki regarding the axe fx 3:

“Some of the amp models in the Axe-Fx III use 85% of the dedicated 1GHz DSP.”

So… I suppose it’s not just hot air. The way it’s designed in combination with the chip in use makes it not an option in the FM3.

Well, I respect the sound and the models that we get to play regardless, but I’ve also gained more appreciation for other approaches and efforts that I have scoffed at recently.

I concede, I guess.
 
I think even if it was possible, when a business has another product tier which provides those specific requests, it doesn’t make much sense to do it in the lower tier product.

If ran a drink business and has a small, medium and large, would I offer people the option to get a small and then for no added charge, give them an extra cup so they get more ? No, I’d say buy a medium or large size right ?

Fractal is beyond generous with added features and upgrades, but they are in it to make a profit at the end of the day, just like any business
 
supersonic182 said:
That first response of yours made it sound like there was a community outcry, and not Cliff or any engineers, so. Lol.
Click to expand...

Fractal tries to be responsive to the requests of the community, which resulted in …
(Axe-Fx II, firmware 3.04) "In high-res mode the internal sampling rate is doubled so as to provide greater fidelity and resistance to aliasing. This mode is automatic and is selected whenever there is only one amp block in the layout grid. Adding a second amp block will revert to normal resolution. Note that switching between presets with differing number of amp blocks may introduce an additional delay as a “soft reset” of the amp blocks must be done whenever changing the resolution."
Click to expand...

Then this thread fired up. Read the entire thread…

To which Cliff said…
(Axe-Fx II) "The oversampling rate is cut in half when running two amps. It's probably not noticeable. Even when running at half, it's as fast or faster than every other product available." [10]
Click to expand...
(Axe-Fx II) "I don't hear a difference but some claim they can. A single amp block runs the amp simulation at 16x oversampling. Two amp blocks run each simulation at 8x." [11]
Click to expand...

When in business and trying to make the best product possible, and presented with a “damned if you do, and damned if you don’t” response from users, then it’s inevitable that the end result is going to be one of two responses: take the toys and go home, which is self-defeating, or provide the highest quality sound quality that the hardware can generate and don’t back down or do anything that possibly opens the door to further criticism, then ignore those who think they know how to do it better.
 
lqdsnddist said:
I think even if it was possible, when a business has another product tier which provides those specific requests, it doesn’t make much sense to do it in the lower tier product.

If ran a drink business and has a small, medium and large, would I offer people the option to get a small and then for no added charge, give them an extra cup so they get more ? No, I’d say buy a medium or large size right ?

Fractal is beyond generous with added features and upgrades, but they are in it to make a profit at the end of the day, just like any business
Click to expand...

Someone’s never heard of free refills before eh! Or like, dare I say.. the plethora of cheaper and slightly-majorly inferior modelers that all make dual amps work somehow?

I’m being very careful here. I definitely think Fractal is the very best. Don’t show up with pitchforks.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Fractal tries to be responsive to the requests of the community, which resulted in …


Then this thread fired up. Read the entire thread…

To which Cliff said…



When in business and trying to make the best product possible, and presented with a “damned if you do, and damned if you don’t” response from users, then it’s inevitable that the end result is going to be one of two responses: take the toys and go home, which is self-defeating, or provide the highest quality sound quality that the hardware can generate and don’t back down or do anything that possibly opens the door to further criticism, then ignore those who think they know how to do it better.
Click to expand...
Y’know I actually decided to dig deeper on Cliff. For many that haven’t spent much time on these forums he seems a mysterious object of idolatry or worship.

I had to dig, but I found a text-interview with him. He seems like a dude that really is out to do the very best and make the very best product. He talks like he knows what he’s doing and after rather than the corporate fluff most of these companies have, and I like that he personally ABY’s amps to his models.

I respect that, and maybe that’s why these guys are so loyal. Maybe now I’ll be one of them. Cliff walks the talk it seems.

I think then that it’s maybe a gimmick of the cheaper modelers to allow for two amps on their cheapest devices after learning about Cliff.

Would it be a better thought that perhaps the next generation ought to at least stomp those cheapie’s at their own game?

I'm not saying I wouldn’t pay an extra $200 or whatever the cost for an FM3 that had the capability. I think it’s a great value proposition for ALL FAS users and new customers. Every day someone chooses something else (maybe their mistake) because they just want dual amps more than that higher FAS quality. Its all over the internet.

This generation, sure. I get it.
 
supersonic182 said:
I had to dig, but I found a text-interview with him. He seems like a dude that really is out to do the very best and make the very best product. He talks like he knows what he’s doing and after rather than the corporate fluff most of these companies have, and I like that he personally ABY’s amps to his models.
Click to expand...
You’re probably referring to https://guitarmessenger.com/cliff-chase-interview-fractal-audio/.

He does more than A/B testing, he has shared output from his test equipment showing the accuracy of Fractal’s modeling algorithms vs. the competition. Read through the tech notes and it becomes pretty obvious that he’s one of those rare people who totally groks how amplifiers and pedals work, and then figures out how to use “maths” to model the electron flow. He’s freakin’, scary, smart. Yet he does this in a tiny industry fending off major corporations with much deeper pockets who advertise like there’s no tomorrow and place their products in music stores so people think they’re the best things going.

Many of us, probably the majority, bounced off those big name companies before becoming frustrated and giving Fractal a try. And then we suddenly start thinking about selling our old gear and going completely digital. Why could that be? Hmmm…. Oh, it’s because we’re deluded and ignorant, according to the critics on the internet. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom