Low Output Pickups

I have an S-type guitar, custom built by Brondell and Thornton. They spec’ed Ron Ellis pickups. SSS.

If you’re not familiar with Ron Ellis, he works for a company called General Atomics which makes all kind of DOD cool stuff/toys. (He has access to very sophisticated magnetic measuring tools.)

My understanding is in his pickup design is based upon a lot of analysis on older vintage magnets and windings designs incl. aging .... really came up with something very special in his work. IIRC some PUps in my guitar are around 7.6 ohms. ( I have to go pull up the spec sheet.) Sounds awesome. Sold me 100%.

My PRS w/ 57/08s are cool but not quite perfect ... not sure what HB I would consider for a swap.
 
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Im a fan of low PAF style pickups and SC, recently i got this little guy to push the front end of my amps and its such a musical organic boost thats really inspiring. I know not too many KLON fans around this waters, but this pedal is really good.

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After using SD JB's for more than 25 years, I thought it was time to try some lo output pups.
I found a Custom '78. it's an Alnico 2, 8.8k DCR pup.
I was sold. But I thought it was way to expensive.
So I thought I'd give the Alnico II Pro trembucker a go. Same specs, way cheaper.
Guess what....
They sound exactly the same to me.
I love the sparkling highs and the way they sound when turning down the volume.
I also feel they pair better with single coils
 
I looked at those as well but they don't have them in trembuckers.
Specs are quite similar to the Alnico II Pro's
 
Used to always buy those "hot pickups" whether single coil or humbucker. Nothing sounds better to my ears today than vintage pups.

It just seems that there's a greater element of control and character of the sound that brings out the best of the guitar and amp IMHO. True, I don't play metal which may explain my conclusion. Don't think Billy Gibbons, SRV, or Hendrix, Robin Trower, etc could achieve their sound with high output singles or humbuckers.

As an example, I remember seeing Gary Moore playing "Redhouse" at the Fender 50th anniversary concert which you can watch on YouTube. Just his old red Strat, Marshall amp and the volume knob dialing in gain and cleaning up by rolling back. Or even Gary's LP tone playing "Still Got the Blues" either live or studio. He just dials in his sound letting them amp do what it does best and preserve the character of the LP or Strat. I am guessing that any custom wound pickups he used were not high output. Just a guess...

Could be wrong but the lower output allows the amp do what it does best...gain!

Need more? Add a Drive block!
 
I’ve got an early 80s Gibson ES-347 I bought brand new.
At the time I thought I was buying a Cadillac 335.
Later I found out they had those high output ceramic pickups. A few years ago I replaced them with a pair of 57’s and the correct wiring harness. NOW it’s a Cadillac 335. :) The workmanship on the guitar was stellar, but OMG who was in charge of pickups and wiring harnesses back then?
 
crdark said:
Should not lowering of the pickup-height of high-output humbuckers have the same effect?
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A little bit, but it won't get you the whole way there. There's still going to be more compression than a pickup with lower output.

I'm a PAF type of person now as well. I wasn't after high output when metal was tone #1, but I wasn't opposed to it. My LTD with EMG's brought me lots of great riffs and good times. I have '59's in my backup and the stock pickups in my PRS S2. I'm curious to try something with A2's for comparison.
 
crdark said:
Should not lowering of the pickup-height of high-output humbuckers have the same effect?
Click to expand...

Ah ha, you paid attention in guitar 101! I've found the answer to be yes, and no. You can't take the fuzz out of a Dimarzio Super Distortion, and if you lower it too much it gets weak and lifeless. I also tried it with a Duncan Distortion TB6 in a 90's King V Pro but it had way too much bass for that guitar, but sounded great in my friends Dinky. I put a George Lynch Screamin Demon TB12 in that V (10K, I guess medium output?) and it sounded like it was made fore that guitar. I had that same pup in a Soloist years ago and it sounded terrible, all top end. So much depends on the guitar too, I mean, whatayause in an acrylic guitar?

Anyway, They all have there uses. The guitar on the left in my avatar, (one I made in "99) was originally yellow (why? I don't know, I guess at the time I had too many sunbursts). Well I needed pickups for it and all I had were a set of Ibanez V7 and V8 that I got from a friend in trade for swapping pups. They're around 8K and sound great in that guitar. They're not F spaced but I don't notice any dropouts from the poles not being directly over the strings. It's a really bright guitar, (maple and mahogany) EMG 81/89 and Duncan TB6 sounded pretty good in it too, JB was icepicky. I Googled the V8 and V7 and some Ibanez players didn't like them cuz they were too flubby in the low end, not my experience, but like I said, my guitar is bright.

YMMV, depending on your guitar. Classic 57's didn't do it for me in a couple LP's I had, and I couldn't get used to the Seth Lover's either, but Tokai's M2's (I think) sounded awesome in there LP model, the LS 100Q (bridge measured 13K!, neck was 7.5.

IDK, ya never know until ya try it. I've experimented with a lot of different pickups and a lot of different guitars. Your friend could have the exact same Les Paul as you and sound way different. Ahhhh I lost my train of thought, that's enough anyway :oops:. Talk amongst yourselves ;). Seacrest out.




Oh wait, the V7 neck had a ceramic magnet, and the V8 bridge had an alnico. It had been suggested to swap the magnets, I tried it and the V8 sounded like crap (in my geetar ;)), but I had an old Gibson pup that had the same size magnets :D, and it was alnico :D:D. So I changed em out and both now have alnico magnets and everything's great :D:D:D!!! Peace \m/
 
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For me I like balance. I like lower output necks which are bright and clear and hotter bridges which are warmer.

My four guitars have
PRS 85/15 which are on the hot side of vintage
ASAT Special with jumbo MFD but replacing with Rio Grande alnico
Lollar Imperial low wind neck and regular bridge
Medium output Strat 5-2 pickups

So I kind of like that hot single or vintage humbucker range. Keep the flavor of the guitar but without massive swings in output.
 
I have late 70’s T-Tops (about 7.8k) in both my 87 LPC and my 2010 Goldtop Traditional, wired to 50’s specs. Both guitars sound amazing!
 
I've been preaching this for quite a few years.
With any luck , you are younger than me , and you've spent a lot less time and money to get you here.
I had to buy a high priced Gibson REISSUE , in order to appreciate , and learn about the dynamics I was missing - before.
Pretty hard to clean up a hot pickup in many scenarios.
 
Some random thoughts about low-output pickups:


1) Yes, they're different. Less drive to the amp; usually a different voicing. They really change the way your amp responds, and that can be a wonderful thing.

2) Agreed: lowering your pickups won't accomplish the same thing.

3) Distortion and compression come from your amp, not from your pickup. Even a crazy-high-output pickup can play squeaky-clean if you you keep your downstream gain low enough.

4) You can change your high-output pickup to a lower-output pickup by turning down Input Trim in the Amp block of your favorite Fractal modeler. It won't respond exactly the same, but it can often wake things up.
 
I don't quite agree with 3 and 4
Lower output pickups tend to have a different frequency response and sound a bit brighter.
I've played with the input trim and even an Eq in front of the amp but it isn't the same thing.
But that's just for the pups I've tried. I know there are hundreds more out there haven't tried.
I also don't believe in the whole boutique pickup thing with wire made from fairy hair.
Its a magnet with a coil.
Type of magnet and the number of windings determine the sound.
That's what I discovered when comparing the SD Custom '78 to the SD Alnico Pro II.
 
MisterE said:
I don't quite agree with 3 and 4
Lower output pickups tend to have a different frequency response and sound a bit brighter.
I've played with the input trim and even an Eq in front of the amp but it isn't the same thing.
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I completely agree. Reread items 1 and 4. :)

MisterE said:
Its a magnet with a coil.
Type of magnet and the number of windings determine the sound.
Click to expand...
Wire diameter makes a difference, too. For a given number of turns around a given magnet, thinner wire will have a higher DC resistance, among other differences.
 
I've generally come to the understanding that high output pickups are mostly still around because they lend themselves well to the macho manchild sort of marketing that's used to sell most products to men.

They probably made some sense in the 70s, when there were limited options for pushing tube amps into overdrive. Now everyone can have a basically arbitrary amount of gain at any point in the signal path, so it's hard to see the point of high output pups.

They're the turbo engines of the guitar world - impractical, inefficient, overall detrimental to real-world performance. But they let dudes thump their chest about HORSEPOWER and OUTPUT. WOOF.
 
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