FRFR sounds great. FOH sounds bad.

W

willhutch

Member
I have an Friedman ASC-10. I use this to monitor my live sound and to create/modify presets. When I do this, I play it stage volume. I'm perfectly happy with the sounds I get through this FRFR. It sounds good on stage and in my studio.

However, since using the FM3 on gigs, I have been getting complaints about my sound. The first to comment was girlfriend who said she couldn't hear me like she could before. A musician friend said the guitar sounded thin. A sound tech recently said "it needs work" when I asked how it was sounding. I've gotten positive feedback, too, to be fair. But the negative reports prompt questions:
Am I creating presets optimized for the ASC-10 that are not well-suited for the FOH feed? And if so, what do I need to change?
In general, how do you optimize the signal you send to FOH?

What I have been doing is sending XLR output 1 to my FRFR. XLR Output 2 to FOH. Is there an obvious problem with that?

I can post my main preset when I'm back home. But in the mean time, I welcome any comments about sending the best signal possible to the FOH.

It would be frustrating to learn that I sent a perfectly fine signal to FOH, but the sound tech isn't making it sound good. The main reason I went digital is to give the sound guy an easier time getting a good, controllable sound.
 
Are you sending the exact same signal to both?

Are you using the ASC-10 as a backline? In other words, are you hearing it from behind you, aimed at your calves? The can make a big difference in how you hear it.

Are you dialing in your presets at gig volume and facing the cab, with it pointing towards your head (ears)?

I've also heard that the Friedman cabs are bass-y. You may be dialing in your tones against that and then playing back thru something that's got a flatter response.

Check Global EQ for Output 1 and 2.

What if you send Output 2 to the Friedman - does it sound the same?
 
From my experience, as well as others, creating live presets using a set of good studio monitors seem to translate better with little or no tweaking.

If you still want to use the Friedman, you'll need to personally hear your tone in the venue(s) to see if it's not sounding the same, then make notes of what you may need to adjust. It could be as simple as using an EQ (block or global) for any adjustments from home/studio to live.
 
Also, it is important to adjust your tone at stage volume in the context of the band. Every band is different with the different tones being produced that can mask your tones. You have to find your niche of the frequency spectrum and as much as possible just use tones in that frequency range. Usually this translates to more mids and very little lows (that is what the bass player is for) and minimal highs that the cymbals will mask out. Your basic range is going to be in the 250 hz to 5khz range and narrow down from there. Most content that people with hear in a live setting is in the 300hz to 2khz range. Listen to some famously recorded isolated guitar tracks. You find out really quick that all that bottom end you thought was the guitar was really the bass, and all that sizzle was really the cymbals.
 
willhutch said:
Am I creating presets optimized for the ASC-10 that are not well-suited for the FOH feed? And if so, what do I need to change?
In general, how do you optimize the signal you send to FOH?
Click to expand...
The advice from the others is correct.

When we make presets we have to set the EQ at the same volume we'll be using when playing on stage. Our brain plays tricks on our comprehension of frequencies if it isn't loud. Typically we should work at 90-100 dB to get the brain balancing out the lows, mids, and highs. See Fletcher-Munson for more information.

We need to see the preset, or, at a minimum, a snapshot of the preset, so we can see how you're routing the signal.

Also, the FM3 doesn't have an OUT 2 XLR, it only has two XLR outs, both for the Out 1 block, one for the left channel and one for the right. The Out 2 block routes to the OUT 2 1/4" (TRS) Humbuster jacks. Please clarify what you are using.

Something to consider is, if you're running a mono output, you can use both XLR outs, one to the FRFR and the other to FOH. There are considerations of how stereo blends to mono, which are spelled out in the manual.

The FM3 into FOH sounds great, so we know it has the capability you want.
 
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Here is some more info for y'all:

a) I misspoke. I run the Left XLR to my FRFR and the RIGHT side to the FOH.
b) I'm not using output 2 at all on any preset.
c) Output 1 has been set to Stereo. I'm not sure if I run anything in stereo (forgive my ignorance, fellas). This could account for a difference between FOH and the monitor.
d) FWIW, I do all my preset design using my FRFR played at gig volume and pointed at my head. On stage, I use tilt back legs to tilt it at my head, too. I put it near my feet in front of me pointing away from the audience.

I attached the preset I used last night that generated such negative comments from my musician friend. I only used that on that gig.

Does this give anyone any clues?
 

Attachments

  • FM3-Will's Mesa Sounds.syx
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You're feeding two completely different playback systems the EXACT same signal, at the same level, when your FM3 is designed to feed two different playback systems two completely independent signals, with tone shaping tools to match them up included even.
I'd start with output 1 to your FRFR and output 2 to FOH, then use global output eq to tweak the FOH feed to more closely match what you get from output 1.
Or conversely work it backwards if you can, tweak on the FOH system, then get your monitor sounding good via the global output eq.
The Friedman is colored from what I can tell, creating presets in isolation there can absolutely lead you astray.
 
If you want to use Output 1 for both sends, set it to <SUM L/R>. Otherwise, as @Musikron stated, add the Output 2 block and use it to send one of the signals, the other from Output 1. You're delay is configured for stereo, this means is you're losing one half of the repeats in both the PA and the ASC.

Just playing with scenes 3 and 4, your preset doesn't sound overly bright, it is mid heavy on my system, but I pulled the High Cut in the Cab block back to @ 6,100 Hz which helped round it out. Any thinness or brightness sounds like it's coming from the reverb and delay repeats. In the Reverb EQ, pull the High Cut Frequency back to @4100 Hz with the Slope at 12 dB/Oct. In the Delay EQ, pull the Hi Cut Frequency back to @5400 Hz with a Slope of 24 dB/Oct, these changes help the repeats match the amp tone.

In the Amp block, I increased the Bass to 2.70, reduced Mid to 5.70, Treble to 6.50 and turned the Fat switch on. To my ears, this helped round out the tone while still keeping some of the prominent mids.
 
JoKeR III said:
If you want to use Output 1 for both sends, set it to <SUM L/R>. Otherwise, as @Musikron stated, add the Output 2 block and use it to send one of the signals, the other from Output 1. You're delay is configured for stereo, this means is you're losing one half of the repeats in both the PA and the ASC.

Just playing with scenes 3 and 4, your preset doesn't sound overly bright, it is mid heavy on my system, but I pulled the High Cut in the Cab block back to @ 6,100 Hz which helped round it out. Any thinness or brightness sounds like it's coming from the reverb and delay repeats. In the Reverb EQ, pull the High Cut Frequency back to @4100 Hz with the Slope at 12 dB/Oct. In the Delay EQ, pull the Hi Cut Frequency back to @5400 Hz with a Slope of 24 dB/Oct, these changes help the repeats match the amp tone.

In the Amp block, I increased the Bass to 2.70, reduced Mid to 5.70, Treble to 6.50 and turned the Fat switch on. To my ears, this helped round out the tone while still keeping some of the prominent mids.
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Summing can have phase issues, though.

OP, if you're happy with the sounds in the ASC you can use Copy L->R to get the exact same signal to both sides.
 
A few more enemies to cutting through a mix: Too much reverb or delay, and too much gain. Distortion gets lost in the hash of all of the instruments. If your sound is mostly distortion, it will have a hard time cutting through, especially if there is another guitarist or keyboard. Another thing I found that many might disagree with is that I have difficulty getting 4-12 cab IR's to cut through the mix if there is another guitar player or keyboard. I exclusively use 2-12 cab IR's.
 
My $0.02.. A few possibilities.
  • You are dialing your tone(s) to sound as close to an Amp/Cab sitting in front of you. Which is what you are used to. But not FOH, audience members, friends, most of the world, etc... A mic'd, mix-ready guitar tone is very different.
  • You are dialing in your tone alone, out of context. Then when it goes to FOH it doesn't fit into a mix?
  • You have some hard panned, dual signal chain stuff going on and FOH (XLR-Right) is getting something entirely different than your FRFR (XLR-Left)
  • Your tone making skills suck.. :D
  • Your tone is awesome, and everyone else is crazy.:cool:
  • FOH messed up your feed and/or the whole mix.
  • Your ASC-10 is lying to you a bit.
 
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willhutch said:
a) I misspoke. I run the Left XLR to my FRFR and the RIGHT side to the FOH.
b) I'm not using output 2 at all on any preset.
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Is this how you have always had your setup or just since the complaints?

Regardless it’s very likely some sort of loss running in mono. I would send Out 1 L&R to FOH in stereo and Out 2 to the FRFR. IMHO, the FM3 is a stereo device and even though with care it can be run in mono there’s just too much good stuff to lose and sonic mistakes to be made running in mono. It’s probably always good to have a mono contingency plan for venues where you can’t do stereo.

Issues like typical EQ variances from room to room should be easily handled by the sound guy. I also wonder if the Friedman ASC-10 is the best thing to build presets that will be mostly heard from a full FOH system. Does the Friedman have a direct out? I wonder what experimenting with sending that to the FOH (if you stay in mono) would yield? This is just my opinion and realize my suggestions would turn some of your setup on its head and is easier said than done.
 
I always use XLR outs...one to my CLR, one to FOH...mono...no stereo fx.
Works perfectly and when I go out front FOH sounds exactly like my stage sound...only bigger.
2 scenarios...friends in audience are wrong or FOH is screwing up sound.
Should not be hard for competent FOH guys to eq your feed if it needs it.
Only way to know for sure is go out front yourself or someones ears you trust 100% out front.
 
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RLD said:
I always use XLR outs...one to my CLR, one to FOH...mono...no stereo fx.
Works perfectly and when I go out front FOH sounds exactly like my stage sound...only bigger.
2 scenarios...friends in audience are wrong or FOH is screwing up sound.
Should not be hard for competent FOH guys to eq your feed it it needs it.
Only way to know for sure is go out front yourself or someones ears you trust 100% out front.
Click to expand...
A CLR and an ASC-10 are not the same... ;)
 
It looks like another problem is the way the Wah block is set up. The Wah is engaged on Scene 3, and if it's toe-down it'll immediately cut all the lows.

We've never done that. Never. Ever.

I'd recommend looking at the first factory preset's Wah block modifier, and read pgs. 63 and 69 in the manual.
 
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