Feedback (the musical kind)

chillybilly

chillybilly

Member
We're all familiar with the musical type of feedback that (usually) comes from a cranked amp. Picking two examples from memory:
-Don't Let Him Go (REO Speedwagon) - chords that lead into the verse
-More Than A Feeling (Boston) - the lead part between verse & chorus when a held note becomes a 'feedback harmonic'

Obviously there are multiple elements from the guitar body's own resonance to the pickups to the amp to the speaker cone to the gain level to any pedals in use. And then there is the angle at which one faces toward or away from the amp/cab. And it seems the tubes play a role too.

I have seen feedback generator pedals like the Boss FB2 but haven't personally used them in traditional tube rig.

I'm curious about obtaining similar from the FM9T. I have numerous gain-y presets built, usually with a JCM800 or Friedman. I've never really had a need or use for the super-high-gain stuff like Engl. I'll typically put a HeartPedal/Zen Master/Chiron in front (footswitchable).

At club gig volume through FRFR I'm getting SOME of that feedback but it's less than and dissimilar to what a tube amp at similar SPL might generate.

In terms of A/B comparison playing chords etc normally the sound is lifelike, quality & convincing with the FM9T but when I want to conjure some of those ghostly overtones from sustaining a note - which in turn causes the note to sustain more - I'm falling short of the mark.

It's possible I'm asking for that which cannot be created artificially due to the properties and physics described above but I'm still curious about others' methods or experiences.
 
OH, my friend, that's the holy grail for me, too! Play a chord that sustains into feedback. AAH...Leon Todd (I feel like I should always say the great Leon Todd) has an interesting video on this topic. This never worked for me personally as I got weird artifacts I couldn't control, but YMMV. LT gets all the credit and I take all the blame for it not working for me.

 
Feedback, AKA acoustic-coupling, is physics in action, and is very doable with the modeler. What gets in the way is that people tend to not run their system as loud as a regular amp because they can get more gain at lower volume, and the speakers don’t beam the sound like regular guitar speakers do. Standing closer to the cabinet can help a lot as can making sure your guitar and speakers are pointing toward each other.

Be careful with time-based effects because they can cause the signal from the speaker to be out of phase to the string’s vibrations and cancel it instead of reinforcing it. Also use a solid-body guitar, not a semi or hollow body; they’ll feedback but the body resonance can be at a different frequency than the string frequency you want and take over and/or kill it.

Cliff has a good tech. note talking about acoustic-coupling: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/. That entire thread is good.

Simulating acoustic feedback with electronics is possible but it doesn’t really sound right. There are some presets available on the forum but I find them very artificial sounding; There’s a very organic and alive way it changes as we move and turn which electronic devices can’t sense. Carlos Santana is very famous for using infinite sustain/feedback and he uses a very simple “trick” of walking the stage and finding the spots where he gets the feedback he wants and marks the spot on the floor, then stands there when he wants to sustain a note.
 
My Digitech Freqout
is great at lower volume but it does not trail off very naturally imo. I'm a lo volume basement hacker but with a bit higher volume (but still in the lo zone) thru a real guitar cab I can get natural real feedback by touching my guitar headstock to the top or side of the cab while holding a note.
 
I occasionally employ a filter block to push the mids with a very low Q 20dB boost to help feedback start. I have it set up with a momentary control switch, and a 1.2 second attack and decay time, so it comes in smoothly and fades out smoothly....
 
Black And White Dont Know GIF by Silversun Pickups
 
Most of my gigs have been in small neighborhood clubs with questionable / downright sketchy wiring.

Whole bands and PA on a single circuit. You've all been there.

Generally that meant standing right behind PA speakers and under hot lights with colored gels over them (and Neon behind the bar). That all takes every bit of juice and I'm not even adding the backline and Mic'd kick.

There was a palpable electric quality as if I was inside the circuit. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I swear my pickups came alive surrounded by all that electric juice / noise.

Yes, it is volume. I also think it's being in an environment that creates electric / RF resonances made the guitar both more alive and more controllable. Thinking Theremin.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Simulating acoustic feedback with electronics is possible but it doesn’t really sound right. There are some presets available on the forum but I find them very artificial sounding; There’s a very organic and
Click to expand...

I think great non artificial feedback for low volume usage of AXE FX is the task for FAS and Cliff, I hope they can manage it. Our ears thank you! Well, a FAS own Freqout-Sim feature which is better than all the other physical ones. Together with an expression pedal usage it works great also w/o location information.
 
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i had a mark iv preset with just amp cab and delay and held a note literally for a minute at a gig at the end of a song due to feedback from the mains haha it was ridiculous so i just kept going and had to stop already. no special tricks. i do cut a lot of highs though.
 
TheRedDevil said:
I think great non artificial feedback for low volume usage of AXE FX is the task for FAS and Cliff, I hope they can manage it. Our ears thank you! Well, a FAS own Freqout-Sim feature which is better than all the other physical ones. Together with an expression pedal usage it works great also w/o location information.
Click to expand...
At low volume, where the pedals, or trying to do it with the modeler, have problems is with the string decay. They rely on the pitch to generate their own simulation of the sound but when it fades away so does the "feedback". The real deal won't do that because the string is continuously excited by the sound from the speaker but it requires enough volume to move enough air to shake the string.

As @sprint said, touching the headstock to the cabinet works well, and can do it at lower volume. As long as the cabinet is vibrating the guitar will vibrate which will shake the string(s). As Cliff said in his article, moving closer to the speaker can help to counter the need for loud volume.

Read @simeon's post for a good discussion about doing it with the Fractals.

chris said:
i had a mark iv preset with just amp cab and delay and held a note literally for a minute at a gig at the end of a song due to feedback from the mains haha it was ridiculous so i just kept going and had to stop already. no special tricks. i do cut a lot of highs though.
Click to expand...
I do that too sometimes. One of my Strats is a beast for it and will hold a note as long as I want. It's fun in the middle of a solo to hit a note and know it's not going to fade.
 
Cliff has a hardware idea for it -- just not the time to materialize it so far...
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/post-1838323

I hear you can use loud (throwaway) headphones nearby a pickup.

I've been wanting to try my old VoiceLive nearby too...

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Funny story: I had a new guitar kind of at the same time I received the II. Every time I did a bend on the G string in 5th position, I would get the most gorgeous feedback. I figured Cliff had completely knocked it out of the park!!! Took me some days to realize the guitar needed some adjustment and the bend made the string touch a fret higher up, creating a harmonic in the sweetest way... :sweatsmile: :blush:
 
Greg Ferguson said:
At low volume, where the pedals, or trying to do it with the modeler, have problems is with the string decay. They rely on the pitch to generate their own simulation of the sound but when it fades away so does the "feedback". The real deal won't do that because the string is continuously excited by the sound from the speaker but it requires enough volume to move enough air to shake the string.

As @sprint said, touching the headstock to the cabinet works well, and can do it at lower volume. As long as the cabinet is vibrating the guitar will vibrate which will shake the string(s). As Cliff said in his article, moving closer to the speaker can help to counter the need for loud volume.
Click to expand...
Thank you but that is not really great. Sounds like workarounds. I hoped the Freqout feature could store/repeat/play the loudest parts of the sound after picking and do this endless, based on an algotithm or something like this. But bending would be difficult to become part of the algorithm. Possibly take the sound after pick and repeat it endless and then pay attention to bendings and just use it with this stored sound, .... something like this. This will not work ... :( ... just thinking loud ...
 
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Well, I tried it out but I like the synth variant more. I also added a drive in front of the compressor (FC1 Pedal2), but the feedback sounds more realistic with the synth+drive (FC1 Pedal1). Did I made something wrong or any recommendations? A mix of both with the cons of the synth would be great.
 

Attachments

  • Test Feedback based on Compresssor and Synth.syx
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I added Envelope Follower as Source 2 for Synth. The alternative is to use Pedal 2 on half pedal position as background basis plus Pedal 1 for the edges. Possibly there is a way to make the preset blocks better and/or simpler. Any ideas from the specialists?
 

Attachments

  • Test Feedback based on Compresssor and Synth 2.syx
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