Attenuator

Following up on this: Can the Tone King Ironman II be used with the FM3? Basically I am wondering if I could do the following:
FM3>Ironman II>PXM-12
 
SpudMan said:
Greg, I was searching for a thread on "attenuating" my Fractal and found my own thread here. I am struggling with getting the sound I want from my modeler without the high volumes. I use an EV PXM-12M and lately to get the sound I want it requires volume levels that greatly aggravate my tinnitus. Yesterday I was playing around with the Spawn Q-Rod OD2-2 amp and it really messed with my tinnitus.
I was wondering if you, or anyone else reading this, might have suggestions on how to get the best sounds out of the Fractal without causing hearing issues? I currently have an FM3. I don't think that any other Fractal would impact this decision, but if so, I am open to "upgrading". Would my best bet be using the EQ block? Seems like using headphones would be harder on my tinnitus.
I am also looking into the Tone King you mention earlier in this thread. I mostly play at home so not sure it the Imperial is too loud, but if it works for home with attenuation, I am good with that. Then it would just be combo vs. head/cabinet decision.
As always, if this has been discussed elsewhere, pointing me to another thread would be helpful.
Click to expand...
If you haven’t read up on the Fletcher-Munson effect, then start there, as that’s what is causing your preset to not sound like it would on stage if you’re at lower volume.

If you’re never going to record or play at stage volumes (roughly 90 dB), then EQ for your home or room and speakers and tastes, and enjoy it.

If you’re going to try to double up and want to get a great home and also a recording or stage sound with the same presets, then it gets harder because of Fletcher-Munson. You can use post-EQ in the global settings, or a GEQ or PEQ block immediately prior to your Out block, and toggle between home and “loud” EQ as needed.

Some people have separate presets for their different environments. I think that’s too much maintenance, so I set up for stage, and run my monitors at home at a comfortable volume with the understanding that the sound is great when I’m live and in my room it sounds a little different. It’s going to sound different in my room anyway because the room’s acoustics are different.

The guitar will also react differently at lower volume. Without the speaker shaking the strings the gain and mids will be different. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/ discusses this. Sitting closer to your speakers will help but your ears will have a higher volume at that point too. You could use headphones to reduce the volume to your ears and keep the monitors live to provide acoustic coupling.

Attenuation of the guitar amp will still result in Fletcher-Munson’s affect on our perception of the sound. The Ironman attenuator tries to counter the sound change as the volume drops, but I think it’s not possible to provide the “stage” sound at whisper volume. Not enough air is moving for the bass notes to sound realistic, and the highs loose their sparkle. It’s not the fault of the amp, it’s our own brain’s inability to adjust to the different sounds. I usually run my attenuation at 0dB because I’m on a 22 or 12 watt amp, depending on which one I’m using, the Imperial or the Falcon. I had the Falcon at -3dB the last time because it’s a loud 12 watts.
 
SpudMan said:
Following up on this: Can the Tone King Ironman II be used with the FM3? Basically I am wondering if I could do the following:
FM3>Ironman II>PXM-12
Click to expand...
No. The Ironman is part of the output transformer. And it would do nothing to help even if you got the standalone version.

The problem you are trying to solve is entirely due to how the brain evolved. EQ is the easiest way.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
If you haven’t read up on the Fletcher-Munson effect, then start there, as that’s what is causing your preset to not sound like it would on stage if you’re at lower volume.

If you’re never going to record or play at stage volumes (roughly 90 dB), then EQ for your home or room and speakers and tastes, and enjoy it.

If you’re going to try to double up and want to get a great home and also a recording or stage sound with the same presets, then it gets harder because of Fletcher-Munson. You can use post-EQ in the global settings, or a GEQ or PEQ block immediately prior to your Out block, and toggle between home and “loud” EQ as needed.

Some people have separate presets for their different environments. I think that’s too much maintenance, so I set up for stage, and run my monitors at home at a comfortable volume with the understanding that the sound is great when I’m live and in my room it sounds a little different. It’s going to sound different in my room anyway because the room’s acoustics are different.

The guitar will also react differently at lower volume. Without the speaker shaking the strings the gain and mids will be different. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/ discusses this. Sitting closer to your speakers will help but your ears will have a higher volume at that point too. You could use headphones to reduce the volume to your ears and keep the monitors live to provide acoustic coupling.

Attenuation of the guitar amp will still result in Fletcher-Munson’s affect on our perception of the sound. The Ironman attenuator tries to counter the sound change as the volume drops, but I think it’s not possible to provide the “stage” sound at whisper volume. Not enough air is moving for the bass notes to sound realistic, and the highs loose their sparkle. It’s not the fault of the amp, it’s our own brain’s inability to adjust to the different sounds. I usually run my attenuation at 0dB because I’m on a 22 or 12 watt amp, depending on which one I’m using, the Imperial or the Falcon. I had the Falcon at -3dB the last time because it’s a loud 12 watts.
Click to expand...
So for the Tone King amps: are the Imperial and Falcon similar in terms of tone? I don't need lots of wattage, but want the "best" sound I can get. In the youtube videos, the Imperial sounds reallly, really nice. Warm sounding, which is my preferred tone.

As to stage vs. home, at this time I am only playing at home. I will read up on the Fletcher-Munson effect as I do want to find some like minded musicians towards the objective of gigging, just currently only playing at home. My main issue is I like volume, but don't like the tinnitus!

As always, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.
 
SpudMan said:
So for the Tone King amps: are the Imperial and Falcon similar in terms of tone? I don't need lots of wattage, but want the "best" sound I can get. In the youtube videos, the Imperial sounds reallly, really nice. Warm sounding, which is my preferred tone.
Click to expand...
They're very close in sound, the main difference is size, the Falcon has a 10" speaker, and that the Falcon is designed to cover a Blackface, Tweed, and more of a Bassman that is on 10, or modded.

The Imperial is a 12" and has more low-end punch and is a Blackface and a Bassman kind of sound, but the Falcon barely gives up any sound on the low end. I think a 10" is a better choice for guitar, especially when the amp is against a back wall and tipped back because of physics.

On either, the high-gain sound is getting into Marshall territory and is really touch-sensitive.

At home I'd use the Falcon if I didn't have the Fractals. On stage I use a small pedal board I set on top of the cabinet with Strymon's Flint and Lex pedals. The Flint gives me a great tremolo and reverb sound, which the Imperial has, and the Lex gives me a great Leslie through the 10".

SpudMan said:
As to stage vs. home, at this time I am only playing at home. I will read up on the Fletcher-Munson effect as I do want to find some like minded musicians towards the objective of gigging, just currently only playing at home. My main issue is I like volume, but don't like the tinnitus!
Click to expand...
I have tinnitus and it's a PITA.

SpudMan said:
As always, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Click to expand...
It's what we do.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
They're very close in sound, the main difference is size, the Falcon has a 10" speaker, and that the Falcon is designed to cover a Blackface, Tweed, and more of a Bassman that is on 10, or modded.

The Imperial is a 12" and has more low-end punch, but the Falcon barely gives up any sound on the low end. I think a 10" is a better choice for guitar, especially when the amp is against a back wall and tipped back because of physics.

For home I'd use the Falcon if I didn't have the Fractals. On stage I use a small pedal board I set on top of the cabinet with Strymon's Flint and Lex pedals. The Flint gives me a great tremolo and reverb sound, which the Imperial has, and the Lex gives me a great Leslie through the 10".


I have tinnitus and it's a PITA.


It's what we do.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I will look into the Tone King's more. I had been looking at the Marshall SV20H, a totally different animal for sure. Definitely would be in need of attenuation!
So many wants these days in terms of guitar, and keyboard, and so little budget! So I have to carefully evaluate each purchase to add things that add the most value incrementally, without blowing the budget.
 
SpudMan said:
Thanks! I will look into the Tone King's more. I had been looking at the Marshall SV20H, a totally different animal for sure. Definitely would be in need of attenuation!
So many wants these days in terms of guitar, and keyboard, and so little budget! So I have to carefully evaluate each purchase to add things that add the most value incrementally, without blowing the budget.
Click to expand...
Your best bang for the buck is the FM3 as a starting point, with a good quality FRFR speaker. Over time you can add the FC6 and use the OMG9 layout, then add a second FRFR if you want to run stereo.

You won’t find a traditional amp that approaches the flexibility of that rig.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Your best bang for the buck is the FM3 as a starting point, with a good quality FRFR speaker. Over time you can add the FC6 and use the OMG9 layout, then add a second FRFR if you want to run stereo.

You won’t find a traditional amp that approaches the flexibility of that rig.
Click to expand...
I have been looking at the new Fender FRFR,s. Not sure if you can mix and match different ones as I aleady have the EV.
 
SpudMan said:
Honestly, I have no idea, I wasn't sure. Sounds like you think it is OK? In which case I might go for it. Seems like a nice addition to my setup to be able to run in stereo.
Click to expand...
Look through Section 4 in the manual. It covers all sorts of ways to connect the modeler to other systems/devices.
 
AtomicJeff said:
While I don't have experience with multiple brands of attenuators, the ones I have tried (Dr. Z AIrbrake, Marshall Powerbrake, THD Hot Plate, Weber Mass) are what I consider to be the lessor expensive models by today's standards. Every one of them left me wanting something better. Every time I turned down a single minimum level from each unit's (-4 dB), I always wondered, "Where did my tone go?". This was back in the mid 2000's.

Maybe it was just me, but I gave up the search. I'll bet there are a lot better options available these days. I hear that the Tone King models are highly thought of, but they are expensive.
Click to expand...
I used many years THD Hot Plates with my plexis and I was happy on low room volume level, not bedroom level. The both switches for Treble and Bass brought back what get lost. I still have one here in Germany if you want. But don't forget the speakers, 12" speakers need more power than 5" to sound good. Today I use the AXE FX III on low bedroom level and I'm really happier than in past. Refer to signature.
 
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SpudMan said:
Greg, I was searching for a thread on "attenuating" my Fractal and found my own thread here. I am struggling with getting the sound I want from my modeler without the high volumes. I use an EV PXM-12M and lately to get the sound I want it requires volume levels that greatly aggravate my tinnitus. Yesterday I was playing around with the Spawn Q-Rod OD2-2 amp and it really messed with my tinnitus.
I was wondering if you, or anyone else reading this, might have suggestions on how to get the best sounds out of the Fractal without causing hearing issues? I currently have an FM3. I don't think that any other Fractal would impact this decision, but if so, I am open to "upgrading". Would my best bet be using the EQ block? Seems like using headphones would be harder on my tinnitus.
I am also looking into the Tone King you mention earlier in this thread. I mostly play at home so not sure it the Imperial is too loud, but if it works for home with attenuation, I am good with that. Then it would just be combo vs. head/cabinet decision.
As always, if this has been discussed elsewhere, pointing me to another thread would be helpful.
Click to expand...
That's was the main reason why I switched to FAS and I'm happy with my rig and my ears now. Refer my signature.
 
Only attenuator I've used was a THD Hotplate and it did a pretty good job one or two clicks down to go from welding volume to just mildly scorching. But past that is started to neuter things.
 
Unless you wan’t very moderate attenuation is a waste of time. Fizzy, squishy, compressed are typical symptoms. I haven’t tried the OX or the Boss one- they reamp btw. But they seem better. But none of them are perfect.
The best Low volume solution is Fractal.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
If you haven’t read up on the Fletcher-Munson effect, then start there, as that’s what is causing your preset to not sound like it would on stage if you’re at lower volume.

If you’re never going to record or play at stage volumes (roughly 90 dB), then EQ for your home or room and speakers and tastes, and enjoy it.

If you’re going to try to double up and want to get a great home and also a recording or stage sound with the same presets, then it gets harder because of Fletcher-Munson. You can use post-EQ in the global settings, or a GEQ or PEQ block immediately prior to your Out block, and toggle between home and “loud” EQ as needed.

Some people have separate presets for their different environments. I think that’s too much maintenance, so I set up for stage, and run my monitors at home at a comfortable volume with the understanding that the sound is great when I’m live and in my room it sounds a little different. It’s going to sound different in my room anyway because the room’s acoustics are different.

The guitar will also react differently at lower volume. Without the speaker shaking the strings the gain and mids will be different. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/the-modelers-dont-clean-up-with-the-volume-knob-myth.154557/ discusses this. Sitting closer to your speakers will help but your ears will have a higher volume at that point too. You could use headphones to reduce the volume to your ears and keep the monitors live to provide acoustic coupling.

Attenuation of the guitar amp will still result in Fletcher-Munson’s affect on our perception of the sound. The Ironman attenuator tries to counter the sound change as the volume drops, but I think it’s not possible to provide the “stage” sound at whisper volume. Not enough air is moving for the bass notes to sound realistic, and the highs loose their sparkle. It’s not the fault of the amp, it’s our own brain’s inability to adjust to the different sounds. I usually run my attenuation at 0dB because I’m on a 22 or 12 watt amp, depending on which one I’m using, the Imperial or the Falcon. I had the Falcon at -3dB the last time because it’s a loud 12 watts.
Click to expand...
This Fletcher -Munson effect is only a small part of it.
If it was then modeling would sound and feel under your fingers drastically different at high and low volumes in the same way a tube amp does.
It doesn’t.
If you use the Loudness function on a stereo you will realize that you only need to compensate for the F-M effect at quite low volumes to make it sound right. Guitars aren’t low frequency instruments either.
Turning up a tube amp adds various distortions from components such as the phase inverter and power tubes. Its not just as simple as how we hear louder vs quieter.
 
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TheRedDevil said:
That's was the main reason why I switched to FAS and I'm happy with my rig and my ears now. Refer my signature.
Click to expand...
By FAS, you mean Fractal? And if so do you mean taking advantage of using the EQ block? Not sure how to do that EQ adjustment and still get a "louder" sound, but if that is possible I will enjoy learning and experimenting to get what I am looking for.
 
Yes, Fractal Audio Systems (FAS). Yes, I use the GEQ settings shown in the signature together with my F12/F12M FRFR speakers and no EQ for the studio monitors. All speaker togethers sound great and give you a great amp in the room feeling on very low volume. Possibly there are better speakers/monitors but I'm totally happy with it and don't feel a difference to my real amps in past on higher volume. Possibly it's not the full amp volume feeling, but I never had that and don't miss it. Headphones are no alternative for me. I need the room, cab and real speaker sound.
 
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2204JCM said:
This Fletcher -Munson effect is only a small part of it.
If it was then modeling would sound and feel under your fingers drastically different at high and low volumes in the same way a tube amp does.
It doesn’t.
If you use the Loudness function on a stereo you will realize that you only need to compensate for the F-M effect at quite low volumes to make it sound right. Guitars aren’t low frequency instruments either.
Turning up a tube amp adds various distortions from components such as the phase inverter and power tubes. Its not just as simple as how we hear louder vs quieter.
Click to expand...
Modelling does sound different at low and high volumes. Just read all the “this preset is dark” comments about gift of tone presets. Then, try it yourself. F-M doesnt care what the audio source is, its still going to take effect.
 
TheRedDevil said:
Yes, Fractal Audio Systems (FAS). Yes, I use the GEQ settings shown in the signature together with my F12/F12M FRFR speakers and no EQ for the studio monitors. All speaker togethers sound great and give you a great amp in the room feeling on very low volume. Possibly there are better speakers/monitors but I'm totally happy with it and don't feel a difference to my real amps in past on higher volume. Possibly it's not the full amp volume feeling, but I never had that and don't miss it. Headphones are no alternative for me. I need the room, cab and real speaker sound.
Click to expand...
I am currently using the EV PXM-12P as a floor monitor. Thinking of adding the new Fender Tonemaster FR-12 for stereo. I will give your setting a try and see how it works out for me. Thanks for the help. Headphones are not good for me either, but mostly due to my tinnitus issues.
 
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