Are you tired of FRFR?

Dramelot said:
As a semi seasoned vet. No the 8 celestions or (mychoice) 4 evms cranked with a Marshall 9200 (i just sold for a profit @ 10 years old) is something to behold. We are so close as to think why? Why can I get so close and kneel to a FRFR and get it right. Are we faking?
Why do EJ, JB, JS, Vai or Timmons still go the speaker route.
Because it is still valid. And always will be.
But I do not have roady's any longer...
And shit this thing is Valid!!
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I don't think you need to see the FRFR solution above guitar cabs, it's more of another opinion today - IMO a good frfr cab makes your axefx-setup much lighter. Most of the big player doesn't need to lift their amps and cabs by themselfs - their road crew does, and most of them found their choice of tone long time ago, so they "know" which of those 123 amps works best for them. If they decided to put a four amp setup into a small box, because travelling with it isn't safe anymore or roadies were not longer available - I guess they would change to a modern type frfr setup to get the big tones......
 
nater said:
What's odd though, or can be confusing, is most FRFR solutions are 12in speakers. Some differences are the composite enclosure vs. wood cabinet. One would "think" you "should" be able to get an FRFR to sound like a guitar cab. Even if it just takes a little EQ. Why not? Why can't an FRFR speaker sound like a cab in the room?? I think this is what the disillusion ( or not) is for some people.
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Sure but one 12in speaker 20hz-20khz will not sound "just like" a 4x12in that are closer to 125hz-5khz and far from flat. Now... I'm all about FRFR but the thing is that I don't think people should keep saying things like "my CLR sounds just like a 4x12" because... let's face it. IMO you could get close with the cab but there's another myth that needs to be busted: "power amp simulation + ss power amp" isn't equal to "tube power amp". IMO this is where people go wrong.

Once again I'm all about FRFR but in order to make it your thing it's better to understand your place in the mix as a guitarist and give your bassist a chance at hearing himself with his cheap gear. (do all bassist have cheap gear?)

AlbertA said:
Speaking of uneducated...A speaker for the most part is a linear time invariant system. Which is what an impulse response describes. An impulse response is not a "Match EQ". Maybe a little education is in order :)
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I should've been clearer. I meant actually using match EQ (or tone matching) to mimic a real cab with your FRFR system. So f.ex. use a fr mic to capture a real cab signal or just trust the IR you're using. Then mic your FRFR system with the same mic and match them to sound the same EQ wise.

Do you think this would make it sound "just like a tube driven 4x12 cab"? I'm pretty skeptical but I might actually give it a try. However like I said it will not break the laws of physics and turn my one wedge into a 4x12. :)
 
Try two speakers, and a stereo cab block. Take a good IR, the add a rubbish IR, like some that is recorded behind the cab. The badness and mud makes it more real! There are couple in the user IR's section here.
 
This is my second real go around with the Axe. Gigged the Ultra for a year FRFR and ultimately went back to real amps and cabs because I missed that. But what I should have done is gotten a decent power amp and cab and continued to use it. Because now, running into a power amp and guitar cab, I'm completely enjoying the Axe II. I totally relate to the OP on this.

Of course, I'm actually doing a hybrid approach where I'm running a cab IR to the FOH and the monitors. Not a problem for me as that's really how I've been gigging for years: cab behind me, mic'd signal coming through wedge in front of me. But pure FRFR? Not sure I could really go back to that.
 
FRFR from output 1 and output 2 into a good power amp and guitar cab rocks
I turn my Rokit 8's up all the time when I run my Fryette->Avatar and run them in stereo , it sounds killer :)
 
Clark Kent said:
Once again I'm all about FRFR but in order to make it your thing it's better to understand your place in the mix as a guitarist and give your bassist a chance at hearing himself with his cheap gear. (do all bassist have cheap gear?)
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Hey!!! :-x :-x LOL!!!! What's a bassist gotta do to get some respect around here? LOL. An AxeFx II, Wal Bass and 2 CLR active wedges on order...you do the math. ;)
 
larryseyer said:
Yes, there is something different about 'real' amps as compared to an FRFR setup. For instance, you don't get the backwash from the back side of a Fender open back cabinet. That is something that is different. But I don't miss it and I'll tell you why in a minute.
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This comment caught my attention as this is one thing I feel the Axe through FRFR misses currently.. not a big deal, but I've played mostly through vintage open-back combo amps for most of my years and I like that aspect of amps in a room.

To the OP- Maybe trying the CLR's will provide something more for you. I use two of them and love them, but I don't have much experience with previous FRFR other than playing through a few pair of studio monitors (not my thing). I'm also not a working pro (which I think changes things), so grain of salt. I've kept my vintage amps and still ahve a ton of pedals- still love to plug into that gear.. the Neo Ventilator pedal ran stereo into a pair of BF Fender amps is a sound I can't get close to with the Axe II into a pair of CLRs yet..

Traditional cabs or pwoer amps or some mix of that with FRFR may be what you ultimately want to use (see Cliff's comments above). Good luck on it..
 
Clark Kent said:
Sure but one 12in speaker 20hz-20khz will not sound "just like" a 4x12in that are closer to 125hz-5khz and far from flat.
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With a capable design, it most definitively can.

Clark Kent said:
... I don't think people should keep saying things like "my CLR sounds just like a 4x12" because... let's face it. IMO you could get close with the cab but there's another myth that needs to be busted: "power amp simulation + ss power amp" isn't equal to "tube power amp". IMO this is where people go wrong.
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I was not aware that had become a myth :) I most certainly thought the wide consensus in the interwebz was exactly the opposite :)

In any case, the Axe-FX II has shown that it is indeed possible to approximate the behavior of a tube amp using mathematical models. Tube amps are not magic devices... their behavior has been understood for a while now. The hard part which Cliff has achieved is producing an efficient computational model that can be calculated in real time using existing hardware. I don't see how "people go wrong" given this evidence.

Clark Kent said:
I should've been clearer. I meant actually using match EQ (or tone matching) to mimic a real cab with your FRFR system. So f.ex. use a fr mic to capture a real cab signal or just trust the IR you're using. Then mic your FRFR system with the same mic and match them to sound the same EQ wise.

Do you think this would make it sound "just like a tube driven 4x12 cab"? I'm pretty skeptical but I might actually give it a try.
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I see, that's a different matter. Match EQ has similar problems to inverting a response, i.e. cancelling a null in a response if it's not in the other.

I would not use a "Match EQ" when acquiring an impulse response of the system in question (the guitar cabinet) directly is possible. Now if you can capture a cabinet in the far field - this will yield a close approximation to the "in the room" sound. However acquiring a far field IR is not as easy as a "close mic/near field" IR. For one you need ample space to avoid reflections that pollute the response and a proper measurement technique.

Clark Kent said:
However like I said it will not break the laws of physics and turn my one wedge into a 4x12. :)
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Literally physically turning one into the other is perhaps not possible :) However, we are talking about emulating the behavior. I don't exactly see what violation of laws of physics you are referring to here.

A 4x12 guitar cabinet is well characterized as linear time invariant system. With a capable reproduction system then, you can most definitely emulate the response of a 4x12 guitar cabinet.
 
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You can actually emulate this by using a couple of loudspeakers arranged in a dipole (facing opposite ways).

Hotplate said:
This comment caught my attention as this is one thing I feel the Axe through FRFR misses currently.. not a big deal, but I've played mostly through vintage open-back combo amps for most of my years and I like that aspect of amps in a room.
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AlbertA I'm sure you know what you're talking about... after all it's your programs that I'm using on a daily basis. :)

I was able to use global output EQ with my Ultra to make my Magnum 44 pedal sound pretty much the same as a Mesa 2:50 tube power amp. Check:



But sadly no luck with FRFR monitors. Nor do I feel like it has to. That's not why I went FRFR in the first place. Amp in the room sound is a step backwards in guitar evolution. :D
 
Just throwing this out there...

Dual Channel Guitar Amp (250 watts) ? Super CUB AG-300 from Phil Jones | Phil Jones Pure Sound

I'll grant you that this may not blow the doors off the room, but at a size of 12.5 x13.75 x 14 inch (W x D x H) and 27bs, and freq range of 80hz - 15khz (his bass amp combos extend the low range to 40hz), it at least demonstrates that there are viable designs for lightweight combo amps that employ "alternate" positioning locations of speakers. Would it be much of a stretch to think that, rather than upfiring, that a pair of these speakers could be out-of-phase rear-firing to attempt to emulate the properties of an open back cabinet?

[Disclaimer...I'm not a tech geek so take my opinions and thoughts for what they are...nothing more than brainstorming and presenting ideas for discussion. If my head is in my arse, with respect to technical issues, then guilty as charged. ;) ]
 
AlbertA said:
Now if you can capture a cabinet in the far field - this will yield a close approximation to the "in the room" sound. However acquiring a far field IR is not as easy as a "close mic/near field" IR. For one you need ample space to avoid reflections that pollute the response and a proper measurement technique.
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IMHO a lot of the concerns & frustrations expressed with FRFR, and especially the comments that say "FRFR doesn't have that 'in the room' sound", come down to what AlbertA talks about. If you are used to hearing a traditional guitar speaker "in the room" you are actually hearing the guitar speaker from six feet away along with all of the colouration that the room introduces (via reflections). If you hear the Axe-FX through a good FRFR solution using a typical IR, you are hearing what the speaker sounds like from an inch away with no room colouration. The colouration of the mic and preamp, along with the EQ in your patch, are typically aimed at closing that gap.

Good far field IR's are rare, and there are only a few in the Axe-FX 2. Jay Mitchell was talking about releasing some at one point, but I've not heard anything about that lately.

There is a way to come somewhere in between. You can blend close mic'd IR's with IR's made using room mics. The Redwirez speaker IR's include a room mic and the new offering from Ownhammer contains three room IR's for each speaker. I've been experimenting with those lately and I really like the "body" that a room IR blended in at -6dB adds. It's easy to mix a close mic'd IR and a room IR using a stereo cab in the AxeFX 2.

I also like the tones I can create with close mic'd IR's, particularly using "mix IR's". They may sound different than an amp in the room, but that's OK. As long as it sounds good, and I can be expressive with it, that's all that matters to me. Near field, far field and room IR's present opportunities to create a rich set of tones that were difficult or impossible to achieve live with only a tube amp in the room.

My live FRFR soluiton is in-ears, btw, and I either use those or studio monitor's in my home studio. I'll probably pick up a CLR in case I have to play a venue where in-ears are not an option.

Terry.
 
I see nothing wrong with liking or wanting a modeling rig to sound like playing a traditional amp rig. IMO, it's kinda rad.

Given that we are mostly all working with near field IR's, the easy road is just turn off the cab sim, get a decent power amp and your favorite guitar cab. If you have not done this and you like traditional amp rigs, you really need to give this a go. Revelation.

Richard
 
when i had the EV ELX and the QSC's, yes, I was tired of FRFR....since I got my CLR?? Hell no. I don't miss any aspect of it.

it seems that a lot of what people miss (ie, amp in the room, etc) is all about perception and not actual tone/feel anyway.

the only time I ever consider a traditional set up is when i go down the rabbit hole of options for too long....but I snap out of that very quick.
 
Traditional:
- Raw cab sound
- Only You enjoy your real cab sound (Well, only when it's pointing to your legs)
- ^ You don't know what the audience hears (Looks cool on stage, but I as Audience have no clue about what you hear up there, you are having a good time for sure, show off, I just hear your Miced Cab here..) (nevermind I can hear your piercing cab tone right in my face)
- Your FOH sound changes venue to venue based on the mic position and sound guy
- Duplicating album sound is almost impossible or very hard and expensive
- Stage volume control is hard
- Heavy


FRFR :
- Miced cab sound (Like when you are in the listening room in the studio! Not in the recording room!)
- Your guitar sounds like the album
- You hear what goes to the FOH (close enough)
- More sophisticated effect routing capability
- Consistent sound on every venue
- Stage volume control is easy
- Light(er)


There is no good or bad. It's your choice. Muhahaha


Also: Setup a 4x12 cab and 4 x CLRs side by side and tell me that you are missing the airpush..
 
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