Struggling With Full Volume, Tone & Sustain on High Notes

[22 frets]

I am in a covers band and I play mostly rhythm. Occasionally, the guys in the band let me step out and do some simple leads. I own the digital mixer and PA so I think that is why they let me play some leads. . Anyway, I am having trouble duplicating the sounds of the original artists when playing in the higher sections of the fretboard (say from around the 10th fret up on the unwound strings.

A couple of examples are Mike Campbell’s leads on Tom Petty’s “Stop Dragging My Heart Around“ and “American Girl”. On Stop Dragging he repeatedly does a slide on the high E string up to the 12th fret between verses. He gets a full sounding note even sliding into it with lots of sustain. When I do it, it sounds thin and dies out quickly even if I try to use vibrato (which I don’t hear Campbell using on the recordings).

Same goes for the high part of the lead at the very end of American Girl. How does he get such a full sound that is comparable to the rest of the lead parts he plays in the lower parts of the fretboard. There is hardly any drop off at all.

I know some of this can be accomplished in the studio, but it seems to be the same even in live performances. I know they say it is in the fingers of the player, but can someone help me out a little here? I need the magic Fractal Secret Sauce for better high leads.

 

[Tom Morris]

Compression drive and the guitar facing the speaker within close proximity for starters. experiment with EQ to figure out what you need more of to get that feedback. Too much low end can also cancel string vibration you're trying to get in the top end. You didn't mention what speaker setup your playing through. To me FRFR cabinets have a hard time getting good old amp in the room feedback the way an actual guitar cabinet/speaker can. Ive had to be stupid loud and upper mid hot to get even close.

Don't claim to know everything or anything at all just my opinion.

Now for trying to create feedback that's not generated the natural way you could try something like this Mark Day trick with tools on the Fractal. Sorry I guess credit should go to Simeon for the preset.

 

[22 frets]

I should have mentioned that I use the FM3 primarily as an effects board front end for a Mesa Boogie Mark V 25 with a Mesa 1x12 cab. We play mostly smaller venues. I use the amp for my on stage and practice place sound. We also don’t play extremely loud so this could be a factor for sure. Thanks for your suggestions regarding tweaks to the Fractal system. This is the kind of thing I was looking for to try to make some improvements. I’ll give them a try.

 

[Tom Morris]

In that case I would concentrate on muting the FX loop and see what it takes with just the boogie. I had a Mark V 25 and like it so much I bought a JP2c and honestly I liked the 25 better. Only reason I bought the JP2C was for the midi functionality. Sold both of those and sticking with the AFXIII.

 

[Tom Morris]

Brought to mind a gig from last year where I was using the JP2C and my band mate was using my Mark V 25. Sounded pretty good considering the audio is from the guys camera.

 

[Andy Eagle]

Usually a fundamental lack of sustain is the guitar not the amp. You can assist with feedback and volume but if the guitar doesn't sustain acoustically it isn't going too plugged in. It is the same issue as dead spots but to a lesser degree.

 

[RevDrucifer]

How long does the note sustain if you hit it without sliding up to it? Tagging onto what Andy said above, I’d start from the guitar first. If you’re not hearing the note ringing out with it unplugged, there’s only so much you can do with post-guitar to make that happen.

If it’s ringing out just fine without sliding up to it, then dissect your finger pressure when you DO slide up to it and make sure you’re applying the same pressure when you hit it after sliding up as you would without sliding up.

 

[22 frets]

Usually a fundamental lack of sustain is the guitar not the amp. You can assist with feedback and volume but if the guitar doesn't sustain acoustically it isn't going too plugged in. It is the same issue as dead spots but to a lesser degree.

How long does the note sustain if you hit it without sliding up to it? Tagging onto what Andy said above, I’d start from the guitar first. If you’re not hearing the note ringing out with it unplugged, there’s only so much you can do with post-guitar to make that happen.

If it’s ringing out just fine without sliding up to it, then dissect your finger pressure when you DO slide up to it and make sure you’re applying the same pressure when you hit it after sliding up as you would without sliding up.

Thanks guys. This certainly makes sense. Like a lot of players here, I have a few guitars, and all were tested for their unamplified sustain as well as how they sound amplified. That’s not to say they are the best in class for their make/model, just that they rang out well compared to some others.

I plan to do some more experimenting and put some of these ideas to the test this week. I whole heartedly agree though, if it doesn’t sustain naturally, you are starting from a disadvantage. My style and volume of playing probably does not lend itself well to getting a lot of feedback to assist with the problem either.

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts and suggestions.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Thanks guys. This certainly makes sense. Like a lot of players here, I have a few guitars, and all were tested for their unamplified sustain as well as how they sound amplified. That’s not to say they are the best in class for their make/model, just that they rang out well compared to some others.

I plan to do some more experimenting and put some of these ideas to the test this week. I whole heartedly agree though, if it doesn’t sustain naturally, you are starting from a disadvantage. My style and volume of playing probably does not lend itself well to getting a lot of feedback to assist with the problem either.

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts and suggestions.

Some of my cheaper guitars sound and feel a hell of a lot better than my higher priced ones. It’s a crapshoot these days!

We’re given some leniency with stuff like an AxeFX; if you’re not getting enough sustain out of something you can compress it or add a boost or whatever you need to do to get it sustaining more, but IMHO, nothin’ beats making the fingers do the work. That said, the Blues OD works GREAT for adding in just a little drive that doesn’t sound like it’s distorting things that much and gets things sustaining considerably.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

You could try another guitar and see if the problem persists. Maybe pickup height?
you should be able to fix this with conventional solutions but if you still want more gain on the high notes you could attach a pitch follower mod to something that increases gain (drive block, vol, eq, etc)

 

[bobmeredith]

I always raise the treble side of my pickups slightly to even out the volume difference between the treble and bass strings. I opt for a slight increase as I move to the higher strings but ymmv. Start there. There is also a pitch following function in the axe that will allow you to change various parameters as the pitch increases.

 

[unix-guy]

You might also want to check your Input block gate settings...

 

[Dave Merrill]

I may be on a completely wrong track here, but one somewhat similar thing I run into sometimes is very high notes losing some brightness. It's a natural consequence of cab high end roll-off being at a fixed frequency, so it affects lower and lower harmonics as you play higher and higher notes.

I've thought about trying to compensate by tying either cab roll-off or presence or treble etc to the pitch follower. Never got beyond thinking about it though.

 

[22 frets]

These are all great suggestions. I definitely will be trying to incorporate them into my playing. One thing that I think is important here, I get this problem even when I plug directly into the Mesa Mk V25 and bypass the FM’s. I guess I was looking for ways to use the FM3 or FM9 to compensate for my playing and/or guitar. The main guitars I play are a PRS Custom 2408 and a Les Paul Standard. They both are short scale guitars, so that may be contributing. Also, I use light gauge strings due to beginning arthritis in my hands. I have read that heavier gauge strings can help with this. Thoughts?

 

[Andy Eagle]

The "try another guitar," is definitely the first thing to do.

 

[Tom Morris]

22 frets Wondering where you are placing the cabinet. If its sitting flat on the floor that's no good for getting feedback. It's an interaction thing between strings and the speaker being aimed at each other, if your playing low volume even more so. I would do a stand that wedges the cabinet upwards. I know then you need a wedge stand to go between the head and cabinet but it is what it is. There are several solutions out there.

 

[22 frets]

Boy, that’s a nice setup. I use the Mesa cabinet that has the sides and top cut back on an angle to allow more sound to radiate up even when placed on the floor, but I am sure angling the cabinet up would be much better. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Dave Merrill]

22 frets Wondering where you are placing the cabinet. If its sitting flat on the floor that's no good for getting feedback. It's an interaction thing between strings and the speaker being aimed at each other, if your playing low volume even more so. I would do a stand that wedges the cabinet upwards. I know then you need a wedge stand to go between the head and cabinet but it is what it is. There are several solutions out there.

What is that stand? Cool!

 

[Moke]

Kicking in a mid-focused Drive (or Filter) block in front of the Amp should help.

This is what I have going into a mid-gain 'Vox' thing for the solo.

 

[Admin M@]

I really like the GAIN ENHANCER in the Amp's output compressor.