Question on the output level sounding better at 12 o'clock

[cyberk9]

Is it me or my ears tricking me....but the AXE-FX just sounds better when I turn it up to around 12 o'clock or so like a real amp would...............that is certainly very cool....but my neighbors will soon be hatin on me...can't do cans cause to me out of an FR is the only way for me...... more organic sounding.....with no GMO's................lol

 

[ocaptainjr2]

More volume = more gooder.

 

[yek]

It's just volume.

 

[cyberk9]

It's just volume.

Thanks yek I was thinkin the same....... just making sure I'm not crazy....

 

[selta]

With more volume, comes the awesome Fletcher-Munson effect, too. So yes, your ears are tricking you - literally.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Changes in volume affect our perception of tone. Patches that are created at softer bedroom friendly levels can sound different when played at gig levels and vice versa.

It has nothing to do with the Axe's output level knob changing the tone, its the same signal. Its simply your auditory system perceiving the sound different as a function of increased output level. Totally normal, but, something that can be a bit of an issue for dialing in a tone. Ideally one would want to dial in their gig level tones at gig level.

 

[brokenvail]

Set axe at 12 and lower the Fr

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Turn it up to 11

 

[symphx]

Like I said recently, sounds better louder...

 

[Speculum Speculorum]

It's just volume.

Nyquist aside, didn't Cliff at one point say that noon was the "ideal" for most power amps to function at optimum? I know the axe has a crazy amount of output gain so you don't want to turn it up all the way, but I could have sworn we were told that noon is the golden zone at some point or another. I know it certainly sounds better if I put the axe at about noon into my mesa.

 

[edo]

I set the output knob at max and store all my patches with amp block at -15dB or so

 

[Speculum Speculorum]

I set the output knob at max and store all my patches with amp block at -15dB or so

As per Cliff on the Wiki page:

"Optimal gain staging would be with the level knob around noon. Higher than this and you risk clipping the inputs of the downstream device. With the level knob at full the Axe-Fx II will probably incinerate a Soundblaster or other low-cost stuff. The max level out of the Axe-Fx II is +20 dBu. Most pro gear can easily handle that but lots of gear cannot and the trend in newer gear is towards lower and lower maximum input levels (due to single-ended designs and low-voltage/low-power constraints). In the old days, +20 dBu was routine. Everything could put out and handle +20. Not so much anymore."

 

[lqdsnddist]

I set the output knob at max and store all my patches with amp block at -15dB or so

I don't get the point of this as your essentially just over compensating earlier in the chain for less than optimal gain staging.

Perhaps some users don't really understand the function of the output level knob, thinking that its operating like a MV amp and the sweetest tone comes from cranking it ? If your running into a tube power amp there certainly is a point of where you do want to feed it a robust enough signal, but, more isn't always better.

On my FRFR and monitor desk, I can handle the signal full-on, but then I have to have the monitor level set very, very low. What works better is that I level my patches, then run the output level at about 11 o'clock, which is still a strong signal, as again, I leveled my patches, and I can then have a wide range of control from the monitor output knobs.

 

[barhrecords]

There is no "wrong" setting for the output knob. If you know how to gain stage, full on might be correct for your situation.

One of the reasons listening louder helps is the volume of the Fractal is independent of tone. So you can setup a dimed plexi but then listen at very soft levels. This is the same as setting up your amp in the live room and tracking from the control room. It's kind of aural judo. Your brain is hearing a cranked amp but the spl is low.

With a real rig it would be rattling the windows.

 

[edo]

I don't get the point of this as your essentially just over compensating earlier in the chain for less than optimal gain staging.

Perhaps some users don't really understand the function of the output level knob, thinking that its operating like a MV amp and the sweetest tone comes from cranking it ? If your running into a tube power amp there certainly is a point of where you do want to feed it a robust enough signal, but, more isn't always better.

On my FRFR and monitor desk, I can handle the signal full-on, but then I have to have the monitor level set very, very low. What works better is that I level my patches, then run the output level at about 11 o'clock, which is still a strong signal, as again, I leveled my patches, and I can then have a wide range of control from the monitor output knobs.

I know that the output knob is not a master volume and does not affect the tone whatsoever. That's why I consider it a sort of set and forget knob, and that's why I like to have it all the way up, so that it always stays the same. Is there any difference if I set an amp block to -15 and output knob full up or amp block at 0 and output knob at 12 o clock?

 

[yek]

I know that the output knob is not a master volume and does not affect the tone whatsoever. That's why I consider it a sort of set and forget knob, and that's why I like to have it all the way up, so that it always stays the same. Is there any difference if I set an amp block to -15 and output knob full up or amp block at 0 and output knob at 12 o clock?

Yes.

AMP LEVEL resides in the digital domain, it affects the level of the digital signal. In other words: you can clip the signal.

The output knob controls the overall output level. It's totally independent of the digital signal, it can't clip.

You should use AMP LEVEL to prevent clipping and to match preset levels.

 

[barhrecords]

I run Out 1 at noon too. No special reason as I use Out 2 for my stage volume. Out 1 stays put the entire show.

For my presets, I use the VU meter in the front panel utility menu and get hard strums somewhere around 0 or a little over. With all my boosts, solo settings, etc. off. Then I turn on all the boosts, etc. and make sure I don't clip. Very convenient menu page since amp level is on the A quick knob.

I think of the last block in the preset chain that is acting as a compressor to be where I balance my presets.

The amp block is a natural compressor and I would use amp block level to level the preset. If my preset has a post multiband comp or comp block, that is where I would level the preset from. In those presets, adjusting the amp block level before a compressor would not have a direct level affect.

 

[lqdsnddist]

There is no "wrong" setting for the output knob. If you know how to gain stage, full on might be correct for your situation.

One of the reasons listening louder helps is the volume of the Fractal is independent of tone. So you can setup a dimed plexi but then listen at very soft levels. This is the same as setting up your amp in the live room and tracking from the control room. It's kind of aural judo. Your brain is hearing a cranked amp but the spl is low.

With a real rig it would be rattling the windows.

That is partially correct, at least with regards to being able to get the tone of a cranked amp, ie; power amp distortion, at less that window rattling levels. However, there is still the issues of equal loudness contours as perceived by the biological ear, named in honor of the gentlemen who first did some experiments, Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Munson. The sensitivity of the human ear to specific frequencies varies with intensity level. A large part of this is due to the acoustical properties of the ear canal and how it acts as a quarter wave, semi-closed resonator. The typical ear canal volume gives a bit of a peak around 3-4 kHz, which as an aside, it why noise induced hearing loss results in a noise notch in the typical audiogram around 3-4 kHz, even though the noise exposure could of been broadband. The intensity was accentuated around 3-4 kHz, thus the resulting damage to outer and/or inner cochlear hair cells in that region.

A doctorate in audiology aside, perception of highs and lows in particular is going to vary with monitoring level. Something that sounds great at a late night bedroom level of 55 dB can sound like an ice pick in your ears at at gig level of 105 dB.

It all comes back to how its best to dial in patches at gig levels if you want your tone to sound the same at the gig. Likewise, what might sound good live and loud, could sound pretty poor and muddy at home levels.

 

[edo]

Yes.

AMP LEVEL resides in the digital domain, it affects the level of the digital signal. In other words: you can clip the signal.

The output knob controls the overall output level. It's totally independent of the digital signal, it can't clip.

You should use AMP LEVEL to prevent clipping and to match preset levels.

that's what i figured and its the reason why i set the amp block at -15 to prevent any clipping leaving me enough headroom for louder patches.
As for lqdsnddist last post, that is soon true, every time I make a patch that I'm 100% happy in the studio, the same patch live always lacks bottom and sounds overly bright. I wish there was a formula to figure out eq compensation (i.e. hi cut at 8khz in studio equals hi cut at 3khz live or so!)

 

[selta]

that's what i figured and its the reason why i set the amp block at -15 to prevent any clipping leaving me enough headroom for louder patches.
As for lqdsnddist last post, that is soon true, every time I make a patch that I'm 100% happy in the studio, the same patch live always lacks bottom and sounds overly bright. I wish there was a formula to figure out eq compensation (i.e. hi cut at 8khz in studio equals hi cut at 3khz live or so!)

There kind of is. Look up Fletch-Munson and Equal Loudness curves.