Question About Real Cabs

Rane

Rane

Experienced
So I know the most versatile/ideal way to run the Axe is FRFR, but this doesn't quite give the full 3D 'amp in the room experience' for those who really want that.

I know we're all kinda' biased here, but how accurately does the Axe through a power amp and real cab mimic a tube amp's sound through a real cab?

I've read that a tube amp has an interesting, dynamic way of interacting with a guitar speaker. Are there issues with mimicking this behavior with a digital model running through a solid-state power amp?

I'm assuming a SS power amp, as turning off power amp modeling defeats the purpose, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm a FRFR guy myself, I'm just curious as I haven't been quite clear on the subject, despite similar discussions.
 
Through a power amp + cab, it's "even more real" than through FRFR - because it's closer to the FEEL and sound players are used to. You don't have the mic'd up signal problem that FRFR has.

Guitarists are inherently conservative when it comes to tone and sound. They're just used to a cab throwing their signal, the small scope of treble, and hearing it in the room rather than out of the PA.
 
Rane said:
So I know the most versatile/ideal way to run the Axe is FRFR, but this doesn't quite give the full 3D 'amp in the room experience' for those who really want that.

I know we're all kinda' biased here, but how accurately does the Axe through a power amp and real cab mimic a tube amp's sound through a real cab?

I've read that a tube amp has an interesting, dynamic way of interacting with a guitar speaker. Are there issues with mimicking this behavior with a digital model running through a solid-state power amp?

I'm assuming a SS power amp, as turning off power amp modeling defeats the purpose, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm a FRFR guy myself, I'm just curious as I haven't been quite clear on the subject, despite similar discussions.
Click to expand...



I actually agree with the above point too, I might add..

So.. Firstly in regards to your second sentence, the answer is yes, in my experience it does sound pretty darn good and pretty darn close to me and my ears. I've got a Friedman JJ clone, and my friend and I made up a patch using the HBE amp - it sounds identical. We used my JJ as the power amp and used the HBE amp sim as the JJ.. It sounded that good and that close that you couldn't tell which was which - NO BULL!! However, I would think a lot of that was because we used the JJ itself as the power amp.. WILL it sound different when I use that same patch via my 50w 5153?? More than likely, BUT, I would think there will still be many similarities between the two (asides the fact that the 5153 is a 50w amp and my JJ is 120w/60w). I haven't put this theory to the test as yet, I can't wait to give it ago in the coming weeks..

As far as solid state goes.. I don't think I can offer much of an opinion because I found a solid state power amp just doesn't cut it for me with a normal cab. It gets the volume, but it can't do the 'feel' thing or 'air moving' thing that many guys would attest to. Other opinions will be different.

I've found that a passive FRFR speaker/cab/wedge works BETTER with a solid state amp than a 'real' or normal 1x12/2x12/4x12 cab. It just does. But in the same time; less is more. I've gotten completely away from having a solid state amp because my active FRFR wedge does that job better than anything... this is of course, in my discoveries. I use the Axe with my FRFR for that very purpose = for FRFR, whereas I use my Axe + JJ clone + 2x12 Friedman cab for 4CM, and this really works a treat.. I'm fortunate enough to have the best of both worlds.
 
To get a good, authentic result with the axe FX and a cab, there are two options:
1) Tube amp, which colors the tone. Turn off power amp modelling in the axe, because this power amp will do it for real. So, with this option, you are stuck with only one power amp color. So, for example, if you have a mesa power amp, and you tried to use a plexi amp in the axe, the plexi will be "Mesa'fied". It will sound good, but you'll never get authentic results.
2) Solid state, transparent amp that doesn't color the tone. Don't turn off power amp modelling in the axe. A plexi will sound like a plexi... However, you will have to manually dial in the "Speaker" page in the Amp block to match your cab, to get completely authentic results.

Both cases should give you all the feel and thump and etc for days....
 
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Coming from the standard tube amp 4 12 rigs, I knew I would have to get used to some differences, but was not ready to let go. So I followed some advice on the forums and kept my setup close to what I was used to. I'm running my AXE FX 2 XL+ into a Mesa 2:90 amp (not using the 2:90 deep, half, modern), into a Mesa oversize 4 12 loaded with Celestion Creamback 65s. I've been experimenting now for 2 plus weeks, had several rehearsals, played a couple live gigs (used Sennheiser E609 and mic'd the cab as normal). I tried cab and amp modeling off and on. The best sound I found, to recreate the standard guitar rig tone, was with both on. Yes I tweaked amp gain and EQ settings, not totally because of amp coloring, but also because of too much boominess (guitar players are not bass players). IMHO, it doesn't get more tube real than that. I ran comparisons with my Fender, Marshall and Mesa tube amps. I've managed to recreate tight warm clean to distortion tones, as well as a killer 12 string piezo acoustic tone. And I haven't even tapped the surface of the beast yet.
And for the record, using my Mesa 2:90 power amp, and choosing a plexi amp in the axe, my plexi tone was NOT "Mesa'fied" The 2:90 only introduces the tube coloring, which for me, is a good thing. I find tone coloring can be EQ'd out. Like anything, else it just takes time and patience.
 
I've been tweaking my presets for my primary use, FRFR. The other night I decided to try for the first time in a few years plugging in to a real amp and cab. I had my Glaswerks combo in the room, which has an effects loop. So I just went from AxeFX straight into the return of the FX loop. This seems to be plumbed in after even the master volume on this amp.

Even with cab sims and power amp sims turned off and using an ODS preset, it sounded pretty terrible. No body or girth to the tone. Very harsh. Turning the power amp modeling back on helped a bit, but it was clear to me that I shouldn't expect to be able to take presets intended for FRFR and plug and play in an amp/cab combo even on a similar amp. Maybe I did something wrong....
 
A large part of your question is addressed here by Mr. Cliff Chase:

About Matching Your Cabinet's Resonant Frequency

and a little more here

About Speaker LF Resonance

I run 2 x 2x12 Friedman cabs in stereo. I run a Matrix GT1000FX (solid state, which has no issues "moving air", or this "amp in the room" business). My Fenders, Marshalls, Vox, Bogner, even FAS virtual amp models all sound great, distinct and individual characters, etc.

I don't not run cab IRs with real cabs - I can't fathom such ... I get bizarre sounds/artifacts which don't do it for me.

My go-to's include Buttery, Boutique 1, CA-OD2, JTM45, even the patch Gone Fishin' (w/chorus, nails some Alex Lifeson bits for me), FAS Modern and of course a few Fenders. If I want a Vox, just dial it up.

When I have to be quiet, I un-bypass the cabs and put on headphones. (One day I'll enable FXL and use both outputs (OUT 1= for recording/FOH, OUT 2=cabs), but I don't gig currently and no need for FOH.) This is also applicable for direct/DAW recording (Cab IRs).

Someday I'll mess with FRFR and all the freakin' cab IRs out there, but I'm a guy who doesn't deal well with hundreds or thousands of choices/menu items ... I just get lost and confused and always feel that I'm missing out on just the right thing; less is more for me.

Regardless, the AXEFXII is hands down the best musical investment I ever made (and I've made a few).
 
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bought a handwired vox ac15. for couple of hours A/B tested vox-alnico blue and axe fx - matrix gt1000fx through the same speaker/cab.

there isnt anything missing and actualy axe sounds better and is way more versatile. ac15 is damn loud and sounds good if u reach a certain dB. u can get better results with axe with less volume. there is no way u can turn up the vox to edge of break up tones at home. even in a small club you might have issues...all these problems doesnt exist with axe. and the other thing is: to me the matrix nl12 also sounds better than vox combo with alnico blue speaker.

anyways the vox ac15h1tv is for sale if anyone is interested:)
 
Rane said:
So I know the most versatile/ideal way to run the Axe is FRFR, but this doesn't quite give the full 3D 'amp in the room experience' for those who really want that.

I know we're all kinda' biased here, but how accurately does the Axe through a power amp and real cab mimic a tube amp's sound through a real cab?

I've read that a tube amp has an interesting, dynamic way of interacting with a guitar speaker. Are there issues with mimicking this behavior with a digital model running through a solid-state power amp?

I'm assuming a SS power amp, as turning off power amp modeling defeats the purpose, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm a FRFR guy myself, I'm just curious as I haven't been quite clear on the subject, despite similar discussions.
Click to expand...

Hi Rane,

I'm one of those guys that didn't particularly care for FRFR at all. They just aren't for me even though they sound terrific. I prefer (for live) a 25 watt Marshall greenback Celestion cab(s) along with a Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp that is off the hook. I prefer it more than my tube power amps for a few reasons.

No tubes, so it's light....and no need for retubing or biasing etc. The other thing is, because of a beefed up pre amp section and the sound I go for, I don't need power amp tube "sound". Cliff has given us that simulation anyway, so again, that isn't needed.

So for me, the above works along with cab and power amp simulation enabled while using both a real cab and a power amp. I'm totally happy with my sound live and I've never gotten so many compliments. My sound guys love it too. Now in the studio, I get almost the same sound with my IR cab as I do throwing a 57 and a 421 on my cab. It's so close, it's not even worth me mic'ing it to be honest. I can simulate that little pocket of air between the mic and cab with effects that I've worked with over the years using room impulses or use the settings in the cab block too.

But live we do mic me up all the time with either a 57 or a 421 and we have great results. The fan videos don't do anyone any justice as they always sound terrible, but I go back to the board with my wireless and it always sounds incredible....so I'm happy. :)
 
Danny Danzi said:
Hi Rane,

I'm one of those guys that didn't particularly care for FRFR at all. They just aren't for me even though they sound terrific. I prefer (for live) a 25 watt Marshall greenback Celestion cab(s) along with a Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp that is off the hook. I prefer it more than my tube power amps for a few reasons.

No tubes, so it's light....and no need for retubing or biasing etc. The other thing is, because of a beefed up pre amp section and the sound I go for, I don't need power amp tube "sound". Cliff has given us that simulation anyway, so again, that isn't needed.

So for me, the above works along with cab and power amp simulation enabled while using both a real cab and a power amp. I'm totally happy with my sound live and I've never gotten so many compliments. My sound guys love it too. Now in the studio, I get almost the same sound with my IR cab as I do throwing a 57 and a 421 on my cab. It's so close, it's not even worth me mic'ing it to be honest. I can simulate that little pocket of air between the mic and cab with effects that I've worked with over the years using room impulses or use the settings in the cab block too.

But live we do mic me up all the time with either a 57 or a 421 and we have great results. The fan videos don't do anyone any justice as they always sound terrible, but I go back to the board with my wireless and it always sounds incredible....so I'm happy. :)
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So - if I'm understanding you correctly - you are using a real cab ( 2x12, 4x12 etc.) and have BOTH the amp and cab modeling on ?
When I first got my axe about a year and a half ago, I briefly messed around with the cab sims on when using a real cab - and I thought my speakers were going to blow out ! ( when using humbuckers) It was waaaaay bass heavy and kept clipping and couldn't get a decent tone that way. Soon as I turned it off and left the amp sim on, the veil had lifted and sounded amazing. Using single soils I can get a little better tone with cab sims on - but I kind of figure, why bother. Do you have any patches you can post that might best demonstrate both being on? I'm curious as to your settings.
 
I think direct to FOH is the best way but for those without the option because of poor house equipment or sound man, a solid state amp feeding a guitar cab works best. Just turn off cab modeling and let your speakers do their best.
 
I got my Axe-FX and a Matrix GT1000FX a while before I was able to get a decent FRFR cabinet, so started experimenting with one of my 4 x 12 cabs to start with, and left the cab IR bypassed initially. It sounded horrible (thin, scratchy, weird artefacts from clipping), and when I switched in the stock cab IR from the preset (Brit 800) it got better. So I thought to myself maybe this whole FRFR and cab IR thing isn't quite perfect, and I played with the cab IR unbypassed when I was using a cab.

A few days later I was messing with cab IR's through headphones with the same preset, and low and behold I found a stock IR that sounded incredibly akin to what I had heard through the 4 x 12 without a cab IR. Proper epiphany moment, as I realised that there's nothing at all wrong with the cab IR's, and there's a stock IR that reacts to the amp and produces tone in an almost identical way to my Matamp 4 x 12 with Celestion Hot 100 12" speakers. I did some AB tests between headphones with cab IR unbypassed, and the physical cab with the cab IR bypassed. Pretty damn close, so I then set about getting the amp model to sound good with that cab IR in headphones. I got it sounding about how I wanted, bypassed the cab block, and tried it through my 4 x 12. Sounded great, although not as great as I wanted it to. Then Quantum 2.04 came out, and it is, I'm pretty sure, as good as I could ever expect.

I came to the Axe-FX II pretty recently, with a fair degree of cynicism, as I have used closed back cabs on stage for years, and there is a lot that I like about them. But over the last few years I started to realise I have been kind of selfish. Using a half stack means that although I get to experience amazing tone myself, somewhere around 20-30 feet in front of me the treble beams of 4 12" speakers come into focus just where all the bass has dissipated, and if I've got the cab on a stage where the speakers are at ear level it's somewhere between unpleasant and painful for anyone standing directly in front of my cab. Do I want an FRFR to "feel" like a real 4 x 12? Not if it means doing that to people that have come to listen. I haven't gigged with the FRFR cab yet, but from using it so far, I can walk around the room and get approximately the same tone everywhere, yet have it sounding incredibly similar to one of my conventional cabs in a listening position that sounds good.

Going back to the OP's question, which I didn't quite answer, so far I think the Axe-FX and a good solid state power amp does at very worst a more than fair impersonation of a tube amp into a conventional cab. But in some ways that kind of misses the point, because you are stuck with the limitations of the single cab "character" and physical 3-D limitations. With an FRFR I can get the tonal response of a multitude of 4 x 12 cabs, and then switch to a 10" Oxford in an open back at the press of a footswitch. And while I agree it's never going to be spatially similar in tonal spread to the modeled cabs, that might actually be a good thing in many ways.

Liam (not selling any 4 x 12 cabs just yet though;))
 
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Jimmytwotimes said:
So - if I'm understanding you correctly - you are using a real cab ( 2x12, 4x12 etc.) and have BOTH the amp and cab modeling on ?
When I first got my axe about a year and a half ago, I briefly messed around with the cab sims on when using a real cab - and I thought my speakers were going to blow out ! ( when using humbuckers) It was waaaaay bass heavy and kept clipping and couldn't get a decent tone that way. Soon as I turned it off and left the amp sim on, the veil had lifted and sounded amazing. Using single soils I can get a little better tone with cab sims on - but I kind of figure, why bother. Do you have any patches you can post that might best demonstrate both being on? I'm curious as to your settings.
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Correct, 4x12 cab and both options are on. I have amp block master volume at 3.50, level in the amp (near the balance knob all the way to the right in the amp block) at -10.5, and if it gets a bit boomy, add a filter, hone in on the frequency, and remove it to taste. I'm taking out 80 Hz in my filter by -2dB.

I keep cab and power amp sim on because I just like what it does for my tone. Without it, I get that sizzly type tone that I just don't care for. I'd rather a little warmer with less cut to where my sound guy can add a little of what I may need....or the mic adds just the right amount of sizzle.
 
Danny Danzi said:
Correct, 4x12 cab and both options are on. I have amp block master volume at 3.50, level in the amp (near the balance knob all the way to the right in the amp block) at -10.5, and if it gets a bit boomy, add a filter, hone in on the frequency, and remove it to taste. I'm taking out 80 Hz in my filter by -2dB.

I keep cab and power amp sim on because I just like what it does for my tone. Without it, I get that sizzly type tone that I just don't care for. I'd rather a little warmer with less cut to where my sound guy can add a little of what I may need....or the mic adds just the right amount of sizzle.
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Hmmm - I will need to re-visit this tonight. Thanks for the advice !
 
Aha, here's a downside to using a tube amp for the axe FX:
If you have to turn off power amp modelling in the Axe, you can't do simultaneous direct to PA with IR's, when gigging. You have to mic the cab.
 
You can still use the tube amp for the Axe, and a real guitar cab on stage, and go direct to PA, from the AXE as well. There are a few good tutorials on how to do just that. Although I'm still micing the cab live, I'm in the process of building presets for this very same purpose.

I recently decided to set my tones the way they should be for live. So I now have 2 sets of tones. One set is for practicing by myself and the other for live rehearsals and shows. I'm working on a 3rd set for eliminating the mic and going direct to the board. And then I'll do a final set for using the AXE as a stand alone for those intimate gigs.
I've been using the Axe into a Mesa 2:90 tube amp and 4 12 cab with both sims on and using the amp's EQ to weed out the harsh highs and boomy lows. Works real well. Since I've been concentrating on stage level sound. all my stage presets sound thin, (Brian Mayesh), with little bass. But it really cuts through the mix and it makes the guitar stand out, unlike before with my Triaxis.
The first time I used the AXE live, the sound engineer asked me to turn down. He always asked me to turn up before.

Being new, I'm experimenting with all scenarios, and will decide what works best for me and what I'm more comfortable with. So don't be afraid to experiment.

For now I'm still using Axe FX, Tube amp, 4 12 cab, mic'd to FOH.
 
FreeMind said:
Aha, here's a downside to using a tube amp for the axe FX:
If you have to turn off power amp modelling in the Axe, you can't do simultaneous direct to PA with IR's, when gigging. You have to mic the cab.
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How about running two identical amp blocks in parallel. Run one of them straight through a Cab block to FOH. Then on the other turn the "sag" fully clockwise to defeat power amp simulation, and send it out to your tube power amp through the effects send.

Never tried it, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.

Liam
 
When you say tube amp, I understand maybe having issues with running the AXE into the effects loop of your tube guitar amp. However, I use a tube power amp and have no issues whatsoever. I may have to do a little tweaking to get the tone I want. But I always get it. and the results is as good or better than when I was all tube. My biggest problem now is, I find so many other good tones, I'm never satisfied.;)
 
You do not have to turn PA sims off when using a tube power amp, providing you run the power amp in its linear area - ie the voume isnt so high the power tunes start to compress/distort. The key is power. The more power, the more clean headroom. I used a 2/50/2 perfectly well with PA sims on, and currently use a Fryette Power Station - both 50w. I dont play particularly loud on stage though, as there are vol limits int he UK. If you do play loud, then a 100w power amp may be required, but should still work.

You do need a fairly neutral amp though. Mesa and Marshal products seem to have their respective flavor of sound "baked" into their power amps. VHT/Fryette and Engl power amps however seem to be fairly neutral tonally, only adding the compression and distortion when at high levels. These work better with a modeler, or any traditional Pre IF you want a range of flavors. Of course if you ONLY want Mesa, or Marshal type tones, use one of their amps and youll get it.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
You do not have to turn PA sims off when using a tube power amp, providing you run the power amp in its linear area - ie the voume isnt so high the power tunes start to compress/distort. The key is power. The more power, the more clean headroom. I used a 2/50/2 perfectly well with PA sims on, and currently use a Fryette Power Station - both 50w. I dont play particularly loud on stage though, as there are vol limits int he UK. If you do play loud, then a 100w power amp may be required, but should still work.

You do need a fairly neutral amp though. Mesa and Marshal products seem to have their respective flavor of sound "baked" into their power amps. VHT/Fryette and Engl power amps however seem to be fairly neutral tonally, only adding the compression and distortion when at high levels. These work better with a modeler, or any traditional Pre IF you want a range of flavors. Of course if you ONLY want Mesa, or Marshal type tones, use one of their amps and youll get it.
Click to expand...

Wow, I never thought a government would regulate your amp output! Learn something new every day.
 
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