Question about input level

[Valgua]

Hi!

Yesterday when setting the input level for my guitar, I noticed that the result (while turning the knob) seemed to vary depending on the preset (the red is tickled more with high gain presets). If this observation is correct, what preset should you use to set the input level properly? The most high gain preset you use?

 

[lscottk]

Hi!

Yesterday when setting the input level for my guitar, I noticed that the result (while turning the knob) seemed to vary depending on the preset (the red is tickled more with high gain presets). If this observation is correct, what preset should you use to set the input level properly? The most high gain preset you use?

Are you referring to the Output LED sensitivity changing or the instrument input sensitivity meter changing? The instrument input sensitivity should remain the same regardless of the preset used. Though the readings on the input sensitivity meter will change depending on the guitar that you're using (different pickups have different output levels), raising or lowering the volume pot on the guitar, or if you using some sort of IRL boost pedal between your guitar and your Fractal device.

If you are noticing that the output LEDs change based upon the preset, then this is normal behavior, as the output LEDs are directly impacted by the gain staging in the preset. For example, if you turn the level in the amp block down, the output LEDs will show less output, even though the instrument input sensitivity meter maintains consistent readings, as long as you are using the same guitar and not using an external pedal or lowering the volume pot on the guitar itself.

 

[Valgua]

I thought I saw a difference in the input level leds depending on presets, but I may very well be wrong. It was subtle. I am travelling right now, but I’ll check it as soon as I get back home.
Another question: my main guitar is an American Ultra stratocaster with a humbucker in the bridge position. I can set the input level to around 90% before tickling the red. Would you say that this is normal? Leon Todd seems to tickle the red around 20%. Of course, he may have active pickups but can the difference be this big?

 

[chris]

Hi!

Yesterday when setting the input level for my guitar, I noticed that the result (while turning the knob) seemed to vary depending on the preset (the red is tickled more with high gain presets). If this observation is correct, what preset should you use to set the input level properly? The most high gain preset you use?

the input level does not vary per preset. you might have been naturally hitting the strings harder with a high gain sound by habit or maybe it was less loud.

the difference in input level can be that big.

 

[lscottk]

While I am familiar with Leon Todd, I am not sure which video in particular you are referring to, so I'm hesitant to comment on what he is doing, especially versus what you're doing. Leon Todd is one of the "master" tone smiths around here. What ever he is doing must be good for his guitar and the tone that he's looking for.

As to whether 20% versus 90% is reasonable, I would say that it's possible. It is a big spread, but different pickups can have significantly different output, even just comparing passive pickups. I have a Knaggs Kenai with Alan Price P51 pickups installed. It is noticeably lower output than a second Knaggs that I have with Seymour Duncans installed.

What I do is set the instrument input sensitivity using the hotest guitar pickups that I will be using for a gig. If I am using a guitar with lower output pickups and the lower output pickups don't have enough oomph to them, then I'll adjust the "Input Trim" in the amp block to compensate for reduced pickup output.

The term "tickling the red" leaves room for experimentation. It's kind of a cliche around here, but it really is the best approach - "use your ears". If it sounds good to you then you don't have to follow anyone else's rules. The main thing that you want to avoid is turning the input sensitivity up too high so that you are clipping the input sensitivity. This type of clipping produces a nasty digital harshness that sounds terrible. To get a sense of what this sounds like turn up sensitivity until you hear what I'm talking about (make sure that you turn the amplifier volume WAY down first!). Then back down the sensitivity until this sound goes away.

Experimentation is your friend. Make sure that the volume is down on whatever you use to amplify your Fractal. Start with very low volume or you can damage speakers. Increase volume gradually with input sensitivity set really high to hear the digital clipping I'm talking about. Then reduce input sensitivity to taste. As long as you start with low volume you won't break anything. The Fractal units are built to be flexible and you can't break the Fractal using the internal settings. The complexity can seem intimidating, but part of what makes Fractal products so awesome is that there is so much that you can do with them.

One other thought is to do a search on Youtube on "Fractal Audio Gain staging". I can't think of a video to direct you to, but I know that there are forum members who have done videos on this. Perhaps someone else who reads this thread may have a suggestion on a good gain staging video.

 

[Valgua]

While I am familiar with Leon Todd, I am not sure which video in particular you are referring to, so I'm hesitant to comment on what he is doing, especially versus what you're doing. Leon Todd is one of the "master" tone smiths around here. What ever he is doing must be good for his guitar and the tone that he's looking for.

As to whether 20% versus 90% is reasonable, I would say that it's possible. It is a big spread, but different pickups can have significantly different output, even just comparing passive pickups. I have a Knaggs Kenai with Alan Price P51 pickups installed. It is noticeably lower output than a second Knaggs that I have with Seymour Duncans installed.

What I do is set the instrument input sensitivity using the hotest guitar pickups that I will be using for a gig. If I am using a guitar with lower output pickups and the lower output pickups don't have enough oomph to them, then I'll adjust the "Input Trim" in the amp block to compensate for reduced pickup output.

The term "tickling the red" leaves room for experimentation. It's kind of a cliche around here, but it really is the best approach - "use your ears". If it sounds good to you then you don't have to follow anyone else's rules. The main thing that you want to avoid is turning the input sensitivity up too high so that you are clipping the input sensitivity. This type of clipping produces a nasty digital harshness that sounds terrible. To get a sense of what this sounds like turn up sensitivity until you hear what I'm talking about (make sure that you turn the amplifier volume WAY down first!). Then back down the sensitivity until this sound goes away.

Experimentation is your friend. Make sure that the volume is down on whatever you use to amplify your Fractal. Start with very low volume or you can damage speakers. Increase volume gradually with input sensitivity set really high to hear the digital clipping I'm talking about. Then reduce input sensitivity to taste. As long as you start with low volume you won't break anything. The Fractal units are built to be flexible and you can't break the Fractal using the internal settings. The complexity can seem intimidating, but part of what makes Fractal products so awesome is that there is so much that you can do with them.

One other thought is to do a search on Youtube on "Fractal Audio Gain staging". I can't think of a video to direct you to, but I know that there are forum members who have done videos on this. Perhaps someone else who reads this thread may have a suggestion on a good gain staging video.

Thank you very much for the explanation!
I love Leon Todd’s videos and he is very clearly stating that input levels can vary depending on the guitar. I just expected passive humbuckers to have similar outputs (but then again his pickup may be active).
Here is the video I was refering to: (starting at 1:40).

 

[Valgua]

the input level does not vary per preset. you might have been naturally hitting the strings harder with a high gain sound by habit or maybe it was less loud.

the difference in input level can be that big.

Thanks! It makes sense! I certainly tend to dig in a bit more when I use a high gain preset!

 

[momogris]

Thank you very much for the explanation!
I love Leon Todd’s videos and he is very clearly stating that input levels can vary depending on the guitar. I just expected passive humbuckers to have similar outputs (but then again his pickup may be active).
Here is the video I was refering to: (starting at 1:40).

Hi, Valgua. I’ve got an Stratocaster American standard and I have to set the input level at 100%. Nothing wrong as Leon says in the video, or just as Cooper Carter says in another one, this is not a clipping led, is to minimise floor noise . It,s not going to increase gain at all into the signal.