Preset spillover?

Hey all -

I’m looking at buying an FM9 and I want to make sure it’s possible to use it in the way I want for my needs. I mostly play P&W music at a church and we typically play 3 songs. My goal is to use 3 different patches (one for each song) with multiple snapshots in each patch. Is it possible to have preset spillover between these patches? If not, is it possible to set up three different sets of snapshots within a single patch?
 
It doesn't have full preset spillover like a Line6 or Boss, but usually it's delays and reverbs that matter for spillover, and with careful construction of your presets to coordinate the delay and reverb effects within them, yes, you can get delay/reverb spillover when changing presets.
 
Terminology check:

Before | After
"snapshot"|"scene"
"patch" |"preset"


Ya gotta speak the lingo. :)

The manual describes how presets, scenes and channels, and spillover work.
Double terminological check: a Scene is like a Snapshot on Helix but not exactly the same. That trips up most new to Fractal.

As far as patch vs preset, that's a holy war discussion like vim vs emacs or spaces vs tabs :)
 
Hey all -

I’m looking at buying an FM9 and I want to make sure it’s possible to use it in the way I want for my needs. I mostly play P&W music at a church and we typically play 3 songs. My goal is to use 3 different patches (one for each song) with multiple snapshots in each patch. Is it possible to have preset spillover between these patches? If not, is it possible to set up three different sets of snapshots within a single patch?

Being no stranger to this type of set I’d decide preset construction based on how granular you want to go for the tone in each song.

I use preset per song but could easily get away with one kitchen sink preset with tap tempo using press and hold functions to access the 8 different scenes.

As @GlennO mentioned using the same delay / verb blocks provides some trails across presets if you land on the same or similar settings. TBH I wouldn’t sweat getting perfectly smooth transitions across songs - even less when there is a synth, tracks, or piano playing across transitions. A quick swell out / in with a volume pedal would cover the rest (at least for me anyway).
 
Being no stranger to this type of set I’d decide preset construction based on how granular you want to go for the tone in each song.

I use preset per song but could easily get away with one kitchen sink preset with tap tempo using press and hold functions to access the 8 different scenes.

As @GlennO mentioned using the same delay / verb blocks provides some trails across presets if you land on the same or similar settings. TBH I wouldn’t sweat getting perfectly smooth transitions across songs - even less when there is a synth, tracks, or piano playing across transitions. A quick swell out / in with a volume pedal would cover the rest (at least for me anyway).
Thanks for the detailed response. In your experience, what are the drawbacks of the Fm9 compared to like a Helix specifically for this kind of music? Can the FM9 be a strong all-in-one without too many trade offs? I would probably do one preset per song with six scenes. How seamless is using scenes to change channels for effect blocks in order to get more variety?
 
Thanks for the detailed response. In your experience, what are the drawbacks of the Fm9 compared to like a Helix specifically for this kind of music? Can the FM9 be a strong all-in-one without too many trade offs? I would probably do one preset per song with six scenes. How seamless is using scenes to change channels for effect blocks in order to get more variety?
Aside from the Amp block, changing channels is pretty much seamless. You can run 2 Amp blocks if you need to seamlessly change Amp models.

However, changing channels on Delay or Reverb blocks can produce "artifacts" depending on what is changing. This could also be solved by running 2 Delay of Reverb blocks and properly setting things up.

Amps, Delays and Reverbs all run on dedicated CPU cores so there's no additional processing "cost" associated with doing that.
 
Thanks for the detailed response. In your experience, what are the drawbacks of the Fm9 compared to like a Helix specifically for this kind of music? Can the FM9 be a strong all-in-one without too many trade offs? I would probably do one preset per song with six scenes. How seamless is using scenes to change channels for effect blocks in order to get more variety?

Yes, absolutely the FM9 definitely works. In the end, it’s a tool in the performance not the performer itself. It seems the FM9 has attracted more Pdubz players to the world of Fractal, but there are way fewer than in the Helix world.

I used the Helix (Floor) for close to a year, had the Stomp on my pedalboard for a while (but couldn’t get over the input compression), and occasionally still use Helix Native. So I’m familiar with both modellers and workflows and can say that the FM9 and Helix are different enough in both workflow and performance so deciding on what’s best for you will depend on what elements are the most important.

For me - If I needed to choose between the Helix and FM9 right now - I’d confidently go all-in on the FM9. It’s easier to dial in amazing amp tones, there are way more options, the dynamics are more realistic, and the effects are classes above Line 6 (although I did love the delays in the Helix). Bottom line… I’ve never had so many ’I’ve found the perfect tone’ or ‘this sounds f*#king amazing’ with any other modeller or platform. Fractal is the shit….

That said there are a couple of areas where Helix does have the edge over the Fractal units:
  • An audio gap in changing amp channels: As @unix-guy mentioned this isn’t a problem if you only use one amp at a time. You can add two amp blocks and switch between them, so changes are gapless. However, if you want to layer amps, change channels, and always have both amp blocks engaged (like I do) you will just have to accept that there is a micro audio gap when changing channels. I notice the gap when playing live… It bothers me a little… but once you learn to change scenes/channels just before the downbeat of the next section, add some delay and reverb… it’s almost a non-issue. That said, IMO, gapless changes should be the goal for the Fractal product range. Helix has it with Snapshots... the naysayers will say it's different and in some ways it is... but the end product isn't. One can change every setting on the model without audio gaps while the other can do limited changes before needing to change channels and add a audio gap... Queue the eternal debate :tearsofjoy:
  • Explosive delay and reverb artefacts: This is my biggest downer with the Fractal products. When changing channels on Delays, Plex-Delay, and Reverb blocks you will occasionally encounter an explosion of trails which can be at the same volume or higher depending on what you’re playing. It’s more prominent when switching between ambient tones with higher wet mix levels and longer trails or decay times. There are workarounds but only if you have other blocks free and available CPU to run them all. If you’re already using the two delay blocks (I have one before the amp and one after) or the Plex-Delay block it’s not so simple and there isn’t a workaround for it. I still have to make concessions or turn down/off the output when changing ambient sounds when the band is playing quietly… I’ve learned that the hard way and unfortunately that isn’t confidence-inspiring when playing live. I still don’t understand why this behaviour hasn’t been corrected … in no live environment is that explosive delay/reverb spillover acceptable/desirable.
For me, the benefits massively outweigh the drawbacks (in my use it's really only the delay/verb explosions). If you can work around the above (mentally or technically) everything else about Fractal is absolutely amazing...
 
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Yes, absolutely the FM9 definitely works. In the end, it’s a tool in the performance not the performer itself. It seems the FM9 has attracted more Pdubz players to the world of Fractal, but there are way fewer than in the Helix world.

I used the Helix (Floor) for close to a year, had the Stomp on my pedalboard for a while (but couldn’t get over the input compression), and occasionally still use Helix Native. So I’m familiar with both modellers and workflows and can say that the FM9 and Helix are different enough in both workflow and performance so deciding on what’s best for you will depend on what elements are the most important.

For me - If I needed to choose between the Helix and FM9 right now - I’d confidently go all-in on the FM9. It’s easier to dial in amazing amp tones, there are way more options, the dynamics are more realistic, and the effects are classes above Line 6 (although I did love the delays in the Helix). Bottom line… I’ve never had so many ’I’ve found the perfect tone’ or ‘this sounds f*#king amazing’ with any other modeller or platform. Fractal is the shit….

That said there are a couple of areas where Helix does have the edge over the Fractal units:
  • An audio gap in changing amp channels: As @unix-guy mentioned this isn’t a problem if you only use one amp at a time. You can add two amp blocks and switch between them, so changes are gapless. However, if you want to layer amps, change channels, and always have both amp blocks engaged (like I do) you will just have to accept that there is a micro audio gap when changing channels. I notice the gap when playing live… It bothers me a little… but once you learn to change scenes/channels just before the downbeat of the next section, add some delay and reverb… it’s almost a non-issue. That said, IMO, gapless changes should be the goal for the Fractal product range. Helix has it with Snapshots... the naysayers will say it's different and in some ways it is... but the end product isn't. One can change every setting on the model without audio gaps while the other can do limited changes before needing to change channels and add a audio gap... Queue the eternal debate :tearsofjoy:
  • Explosive delay and reverb artefacts: This is my biggest downer with the Fractal products. When changing channels on Delays, Plex-Delay, and Reverb blocks you will occasionally encounter an explosion of trails which can be at the same volume or higher depending on what you’re playing. It’s more prominent when switching between ambient tones with higher wet mix levels and longer trails or decay times. There are workarounds but only if you have other blocks free and available CPU to run them all. If you’re already using the two delay blocks (I have one before the amp and one after) or the Plex-Delay block it’s not so simple and there isn’t a workaround for it. I still have to make concessions or turn down/off the output when changing ambient sounds when the band is playing quietly… I’ve learned that the hard way and unfortunately that isn’t confidence-inspiring when playing live. I still don’t understand why this behaviour hasn’t been corrected … in no live environment is that explosive delay/reverb spillover acceptable/desirable.
For me, the benefits massively outweigh the drawbacks (in my use it's really only the delay/verb explosions). If you can work around the above (mentally or technically) everything else about Fractal is absolutely amazing...
Great response, thank you. It seems like this unit is probably the way to go. I like having a consistent tone, so I'll probably just copy/paste a patch and then set up different scenes per song. If I'm using clones of the same patch, would that help kill the gaps and the delay and reverb artifacts?

I've also been reading the manual trying to get an idea of how it all works. So, am I right in gathering that you create blocks by effect type rather than just adding an effect to an empty block? And you can have two delays, two reverbs, and a plexdelay/verb? Since it runs on a dedicated section of the CPU, are you ever totally unable to select the delay or verb that you want, or are they pretty much all available? I'm coming from an HX Stomp so I'm used to things being grey'd out quite often haha.

Would it be theoretically possible to have a patch that includes
Comp - Pitch - Drive 1 - Drive 2 - Drive 3 (Maybe?) - Chorus - Volume - Two Amps - Two Cabs - Delay 1 - Delay 2 - Reverb 1 - Reverb 2 - Plexdelay

I'm not saying thats exactly what I want to do but I'm just gauging how much stuff I can get going at a time. I understand adding the pitch might be a bit much.

Thanks for entertaining all my questions! Im still trying to find resources for examples of patches being put together.
 
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Would it be theoretically possible to have a patch that includes
Comp - Pitch - Drive 1 - Drive 2 - Drive 3 (Maybe?) - Chorus - Volume - Two Amps - Two Cabs - Delay 1 - Delay 2 - Reverb 1 - Reverb 2 - Plexdelay
Possible, since the Amp, Delay and Reverb are essentially "free".

Drives can be CPU intensive. Using 3 Drive blocks unless you need to stack 3 is probably not needed as you have 4 channels per block, so you could get 8 different drives between 2 blocks.

Plex Delay is not a "normal" delay and doesn't run on one of the dedicated cores, and can also be a CPU hog.

You may not need 2 Cab blocks depending on what you're trying to do... The Cab block uses some CPU and each IR slot being used adds to CPU, more with higher quality settings.
 
I'll probably just copy/paste a patch and then set up different scenes per song. If I'm using clones of the same patch, would that help kill the gaps and the delay and reverb artifacts?
This would be a smart approach. Create your base tones and then save the 'master' preset to a new spot and customise it for the song. It won't help with the gaps or artefacts so much as they occur within the preset itself as well. Although having the same delay or reverb algo (for example) selected on the preset you're going to, as the one you're on, may smoothen that transition.

you can have two delays, two reverbs, and a plexdelay/verb? Since it runs on a dedicated section of the CPU, are you ever totally unable to select the delay or verb that you want, or are they pretty much all available?
Yes generally once you have added the delay or reverb block it's counted in the CPU and you're safe for most/all settings. There is a slight bump with the more intensive algos so if you're borderline max on CPU usage it may be a problem... But we're talking small shifts...

Would it be theoretically possible to have a patch that includes
Comp - Pitch - Drive 1 - Drive 2 - Drive 3 (Maybe?) - Chorus - Volume - Two Amps - Two Cabs - Delay 1 - Delay 2 - Reverb 1 - Reverb 2 - Plexdelay

With this exact rig - if you used high cost algos within several of these blocks (Comp, Drive, Plexdelay) you'd max out total the available CPU. However the great thing about Fractal's ecosystem is that there's a number of ways you can set up a rig and get the same outcome. E.g. Instead of the patch you described you could: i) use the amp's gain instead of multiple drive pedals, ii) use the input boost in the amp's preamp section instead of drive pedals, iii) use one cab as they have two IR slots and pan left / right if you want the stereo spread. Just those changes would save more than 15% in CPU usage.

The preset that I created as my baseline whenever I do play Pdubz is pretty jam-packed and I simply swap out or delete blocks as the song needs. Here's a screenshot to give you an idea. If I can't get the tone within this preset my problem is not with Fractal 😂

All In One.png
 
Possible, since the Amp, Delay and Reverb are essentially "free".

Drives can be CPU intensive. Using 3 Drive blocks unless you need to stack 3 is probably not needed as you have 4 channels per block, so you could get 8 different drives between 2 blocks.

Plex Delay is not a "normal" delay and doesn't run on one of the dedicated cores, and can also be a CPU hog.

You may not need 2 Cab blocks depending on what you're trying to do... The Cab block uses some CPU and each IR slot being used adds to CPU, more with higher quality settings.
This would be a smart approach. Create your base tones and then save the 'master' preset to a new spot and customise it for the song. It won't help with the gaps or artefacts so much as they occur within the preset itself as well. Although having the same delay or reverb algo (for example) selected on the preset you're going to, as the one you're on, may smoothen that transition.


Yes generally once you have added the delay or reverb block it's counted in the CPU and you're safe for most/all settings. There is a slight bump with the more intensive algos so if you're borderline max on CPU usage it may be a problem... But we're talking small shifts...



With this exact rig - if you used high cost algos within several of these blocks (Comp, Drive, Plexdelay) you'd max out total the available CPU. However the great thing about Fractal's ecosystem is that there's a number of ways you can set up a rig and get the same outcome. E.g. Instead of the patch you described you could: i) use the amp's gain instead of multiple drive pedals, ii) use the input boost in the amp's preamp section instead of drive pedals, iii) use one cab as they have two IR slots and pan left / right if you want the stereo spread. Just those changes would save more than 15% in CPU usage.

The preset that I created as my baseline whenever I do play Pdubz is pretty jam-packed and I simply swap out or delete blocks as the song needs. Here's a screenshot to give you an idea. If I can't get the tone within this preset my problem is not with Fractal 😂

View attachment 114247
I did not realize that you could use one cab block and insert two IRs into it. Very cool.
 
It seems like this unit is probably the way to go. I like having a consistent tone, so I'll probably just copy/paste a patch and then set up different scenes per song. If I'm using clones of the same patch, would that help kill the gaps and the delay and reverb artifacts?

Just to clarify: I’ve done this approach, same base preset, basically only changing the tempo and delay division.

With really high reverb decays, you will notice a gap in between presets. It’s not a game changer to me, but it’s definitely annoying. (Also playing P&W)
 
Technically, you can load 8 IR’s into with the different channels.
True... But in the OPs case he wants to run multiple amps at the same time, so that's a different situation.

@WinnyTheBish - you can also send multiple Amps thru the same IRs at the same time.

I'm doing that in my amp-mixing preset and it works great.
 
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