Overall Confusion FRFR vs. Real AMP

80sMetalDude

80sMetalDude

Inspired
Hello been a very long time since my last post (insert real life here.)

I'm posting in hopes (not looking for outright answers, just some guidance) that I can finally really 100% enjoy the AXEIII vs. "analysis paralysis" trying to find a useful tone, and I'm really just talking basic Megadeth/Metallica/Iced Earth that kind of thing. High gain, tight.

For some reason I am not someone that can rave about every stock preset being amazing unlike all the people on Youtube that rave about it.

I watch Cooper Carter videos or Leon Todd and it seems like the tone they get with 5 min of fiddling or the STOCK presets just "ROAR" to me as something I'd love to experience too.

I am just a closet jammer in my man cave, no live anything other than making ductwork rattle and my wife/kids happy.

My current setup and I'm sure there are 1000 other posts like mine so I apologize.
AXEIII (purchased 2018 during the waitlist era) on firmware version 21.01
(2) Friedman ASM12
or
(2) Yamaha HS8

Alternate gear for testing any ideas:
Mesa 50:50 rack with fresh JJ tubes (late 80s version)
Randall 4x12 with Jaguars circa 1990

The big question is whether FRFR speakers are just not for me really. I have been extremely stubborn with the Friedman setup as gospel and will take some serious effort to setup using the alternate however doable.

One thing I noticed is that FRFR products seem to be very scarcely marketted. I go on Youtube today and so much is from 3 - 4 years ago. IS FRFR DEAD or a fail and I'm holding on to something that was maybe COOL in 2018 and now is a dead horse and people are just using Matrix power amps and such?


MAIN ISSUE: Everything sounds WEAK and Fizzy. Every single preset.

I've tried the INPUT IO stuff
New Cables
Currently balanced XLR in OUTPUT1 on AXE > DRAWMER monitor switcher > ASM 12 over XLR balanced OR to HS8 over balanced XLR

Same prob happened with a Mackie Big Knob (was thinking it was that in the middle of the signal.)

Same problems going straight to either set of speakers from AXE3

My guitars have a spread of pickups:
Jackson with DiMarzio humbuckers
ESP Horizon FRII with passive SD humbuckers
ESP Arrow V with active EMG humbuckers

Literally the ONLY patches that sound any good are the Petrucci Rig (and only the lead/clean chorus scenes) and some of the Leon Todd patches but the rest just sound so weak and fizzy.

Just do not know what I'm doing wrong. Is FRFR just the issue here and I'd not have these probs with a Matrix power amp to a guitar cab minus cab sims?

I apologize for the long winded post. I spend a lot of time reading a lot of your posts and try things but it just seems like I'm on a hunt for some red herring.

Think the real amp/cab minus IRs would be a better route to take?
 
When you watch a YouTube video and the presets sound awesome, what are you monitoring through ?
Use exactly the same monitoring to dial in the same amp and matching cab, Leon has his cabs available for free. How close does that sound ?
 
LTs Mesa Mark IV is almost perfect out of the box

While watching the vids admittedly I'm in the living room watching over SmartTV that goes through AV receiver to home stereo so definitely not audiophile. Just sounds great.

However I have the same opinion when watching vids over the HS8 at PC. Their sound is always great. And lets forget the custom presets. Just the stock ones alone I see so many other people play them and they sound amazing. Cooper Carter pulls out that Petrucci Rig and all the scenes sound absolutely stellar. When he plays the Crunch scene it sounds brutal. When I try Crunch it sounds like some Line6 spider amp I used to own, no joke.

Almost wondering if this has been a global EQ type of issue and the answer perhaps is adjusting that. I just did a factory reset and ended up in the EQ section and light bulb went off.
 
Hmm, make sure you turn up the volume reasonably loud. The petrucci rig did get a 2023 update somewhere on the forum, you should try that if you’re on a 21.xx firmware.

If it still sounds very different, I’d double check that power amp modeling & cab modeling global settings are on and you’re on a 21.xx firmware. Double check the guitar input level coming in and adjust it higher if it’s too low.
Ive plugged a single coil guitar into that preset and it sounded great.
 
80sMetalDude said:
LTs Mesa Mark IV is almost perfect out of the box

While watching the vids admittedly I'm in the living room watching over SmartTV that goes through AV receiver to home stereo so definitely not audiophile. Just sounds great.

However I have the same opinion when watching vids over the HS8 at PC. Their sound is always great. And lets forget the custom presets. Just the stock ones alone I see so many other people play them and they sound amazing. Cooper Carter pulls out that Petrucci Rig and all the scenes sound absolutely stellar. When he plays the Crunch scene it sounds brutal. When I try Crunch it sounds like some Line6 spider amp I used to own, no joke.

Almost wondering if this has been a global EQ type of issue and the answer perhaps is adjusting that. I just did a factory reset and ended up in the EQ section and light bulb went off.
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Try dialing in your tones at 80-90DB or you will have the woof and fizz when you turn it up or down in volume. Also, listen to the videos and your AX3 through the same speakers when you dial tones in, otherwise, you never get it quite right. I would personally start on the HS8s then when you think they are right test them out on the Friedman and maybe just tweak them slightly again make sure 80-90DB when you are tweaking. Just realize you hear things differently at lower volumes and you will to add more high end and that will cause fizz, bass is the same way.
 
Thanks a lot both of you for these responses. Not going to lie I get shy with the volume levels at home and that may indeed be it. Not tweaking at gig levels...
 
Presets do not translate from Amp/Cab to FRFR without some tweaking (and I don't mean just turning off the cab block).
They just sound/react different (IMO). So I'd start with a fresh preset on the HS8s and see if you can dial it in to sound great.
Comparing to an Amp/Cab can be frustrating because they just sound/feel different. I still love my amp/cab in the basement, but for gigging and sitting at my desk - FRFR sounds outstanding. I'm a big fan of RCR NX12ma, JBL SRX712 and Atomic CLRs. All of them can punch through a mix when I'm gigging. FRFR is not for everyone, but you have to spend a lot of time with it, to like it.
As others have said - high and low cut in the Cab block can clean up a lot of the FRFR fizz or woof.
 
I play at low volume quite often and I always get great tones.
- - Check your guitar setup, pickup height, etc, instrument cable. Double check that your monitors are set up correctly/optimally.

If that didn't fix anything,
backup everything on the AXFX and do a factory reset in order to leave the guess-work out of what settings (global eq, power amp modeling on, etc) you may have inadvertently changed at some point. Set your I/O correctly for your setup including line level output (+4adB), adjust your guitar input to tickle the red or if you are on the new 22 beta use the level overload warning as your guide.

I would start with cables, guitar and xlrs or however you have your monitors hooked up, etc. If they aren't already, plug your monitors directly to the AXFX3 outputs to take any possible interface/computer/DAW issues out of the equation. Decent headphones would be fine too.

There's definately something going on with your setup and it's likely something easily remedied and I know how frustrating that is.

I wish you luck and great tones. You already know they're in there!
 
80sMetalDude said:
MAIN ISSUE: Everything sounds WEAK and Fizzy. Every single preset.
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This is often a symptom of not EQing and playing at the same volume.

If you EQ at a low volume then play at stage volume, you're walking right into the Fletcher-Munson Effect, a psychoacoustic phenomenon that affects our brain's perception of sound. Similarly, if you EQ at stage volume but play at low volume the sound won't be right.

Because we want to play at stage volume we're told to EQ at stage volume. From the Wiki:

The Fletcher-Munson curve is the scientific name for the fact that human ears perceive sound at low volume levels differently than at higher levels. This is VERY important when dialing in tones.

When tweaking tone at low volume levels, a player often turns up treble and bass. This is what the "Loudness" switch on older home stereo systems did.

When the volume is turned up, those high and low frequencies get harsh and boomy. That guitar sound then competes with cymbals, and will lose. Also, the guitar competes with the bass guitar, and will lose.

This is not specific to FRFR systems. But FRFR amplification makes the Fletcher-Munson much more apparent because it amplifies a broad frequency range. In comparison, a traditional guitar speaker operates as a filter, with a quite narrow frequency range.

The "Loudness" controls in old Hi-Fi gear was nothing more than a bass/treble boost. It's a gimmick. It was supposed to compensate for the reduced sensitivity of human hearing at lower volumes. It's not accurate, never was and can never be. There are a myriad of reasons why, the most glaring is that you have no way of knowing what the SPL is (without a meter). Since equal loudness contours are dependent on SPL you can't compensate if you don't know the SPL. The Axe-Fx has no idea of the sensitivity of the amplifier and speakers connected. Therefore it can't possibly know what the SPL is and concomitantly can't know how to compensate. Here's an article on what's wrong with "Loudness" controls" [105]
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Beyond that, you could have monitors that are not flat so you're having to compensate for them when you EQ. They could be placed wrong so their sound is being affected by walls or corners. When a speaker is next to a surface, a wall or the floor, its bass response increases; It's physics in action. Move it away from those surfaces, usually by using a stand, and you can reduce or remove the problem. Research speaker "modes" or "spaces" for more information.

"FRFR" is basically a marketing term, it's not a specification guaranteeing speaker performance. And, FRFR speakers are susceptible to the same issues mentioned above; They can't counter the Fletcher-Munson effect because that's inside our heads, and they have to obey the laws of physics when they're next to a wall or on the floor. It's up to us to step in and control the situation; They're just boxes containing flapping pieces of paper and foam being tossed around by magnets reacting to electricity.
 
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Um..... not really sure why this works but when I changed from default INPUT 1 mode of Stereo to SUM L+R.... MASSIVE DIFF....
 
I believe we found my dilemma for the last 4 years /facepalm.

SUM L+R or as you said Mono FTW. Gosh I wish this was a default all this time. I've read the manual so many times and this little detail kept escaping me. THANK YOU SO MUCH for the help everyone, can't tell you what this means.
 
80sMetalDude said:
Thanks a lot both of you for these responses. Not going to lie I get shy with the volume levels at home and that may indeed be it. Not tweaking at gig levels...
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We keep a quiet house, so the majority of my time is spent listening through headphones.

Not all headphones sound the same, just as speakers all sound different. I'm currently using OLLO S5X for working on my presets, and, based on playing through some of my presets I use live and listening with those headphones, they're an extremely good match to the sound I get from my EV PXM-12MP cabs. I turn them up so it sounds like my cabs on stage. They're extremely flat headphones so I don't use a compensating EQ, whereas I have curves to flatten the sound of my Sennheiser HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT 770 250 ohm headphones.
 
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