Latency - Outboard gear

[jsingerkc]

I am a brand new Fractal user, with a new FM3. Sorry if I have missed any relevant posts, as I am getting the hang of this.

I plan to send my signal to an external looper containing a few analog pedals (I stubbornly want to use some beloved compression and overdrive pedals)--sending out via OUT2 and returning via IN2.

Does anyone know how much additional latency this might add?

Many thanks!

 

[sprint]

I run lots of outboard stuff successfully I would say, in my Axefx3. The loops are really fast - about 1-1.5ms wiring straight out and back in. The rest depends on the outboard gear deployed. Not 100% sure about FM3 compared to Axefx3 but I would expect about the same.

 

[jsingerkc]

I run lots of outboard stuff successfully I would say, in my Axefx3. The loops are really fast - about 1-1.5ms wiring straight out and back in. The rest depends on the outboard gear deployed. Not 100% sure about FM3 compared to Axefx3 but I would expect about the same.

Thanks!

 

[Ugly Bunny]

If any of your pedals are digital, plan about 2-3ms for each one, plus the 1-2ms of the FM3's FX loop. The FM3 has between 2 and 3ms latency with an empty preset. Ideally, you'll want to keep total latency under 10ms, but everyone has a different threshold at which point they start to "feel" it or can sense even a slight disconnection from their playing. Around 10ms (give or take) is mine; I can live with up to about 22ms temporarily for pitch-shifted songs, but not long-term. I can live with around 7 or so indefinitely, and the 2-3 of any modeler forever.

If I may ask, which pedals are you loathe to eschew now that you have an FM3? I have a bunch I'm still hanging onto for nostalgia/collector's reasons, but none that I feel I want to bother with the cabling and powering enough to use them with my FM3. Perhaps someone here can help you find the settings on the FM3 that replicates them to your satisfaction?

 

[jsingerkc]

If any of your pedals are digital, plan about 2-3ms for each one, plus the 1-2ms of the FM3's FX loop. The FM3 has between 2 and 3ms latency with an empty preset. Ideally, you'll want to keep total latency under 10ms, but everyone has a different threshold at which point they start to "feel" it or can sense even a slight disconnection from their playing. Around 10ms (give or take) is mine; I can live with up to about 22ms temporarily for pitch-shifted songs, but not long-term. I can live with around 7 or so indefinitely, and the 2-3 of any modeler forever.

If I may ask, which pedals are you loathe to eschew now that you have an FM3? I have a bunch I'm still hanging onto for nostalgia/collector's reasons, but none that I feel I want to bother with the cabling and powering enough to use them with my FM3. Perhaps someone here can help you find the settings on the FM3 that replicates them to your satisfaction?

Thanks for the great insights.

My main live playing is at church where I normally use analog compression and overdrives (e.g., Keeley compressor plus, Morning Glory, Benson pre-amp, muffulletta) paired with a Helix Stomp XL for the delays and reverb scenes. I have the ability to play my Princeton, Deluxe Reverb or AC15 as loud as I need, since they are mic'd in an isolation cabinet. So, I am used to the feel of traditional pedals coupled with tube amps.

I love the Fractal effects, especially the reverbs, delays, rotary, trem, etc. Before I gain the comfort to go all-in on stage, I plan to use the FM3 purely for effects. That way, if I crash and burn, I can bypass the FM3 and just let the analog pedals go to the amp. With this (and latency) in mind, I may run the looper with pedals entirely at the front and then send to the FM3 (i.e., no loop back out).

As I gain confidence, my next step will be to start using the amp/cab models, with the analog pedals at front of chain and go direct to FOH.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Thanks for the great insights.

My main live playing is at church where I normally use analog compression and overdrives (e.g., Keeley compressor plus, Morning Glory, Benson pre-amp, muffulletta) paired with a Helix Stomp XL for the delays and reverb scenes. I have the ability to play my Princeton, Deluxe Reverb or AC15 as loud as I need, since they are mic'd in an isolation cabinet. So, I am used to the feel of traditional pedals coupled with tube amps.

I love the Fractal effects, especially the reverbs, delays, rotary, trem, etc. Before I gain the comfort to go all-in on stage, I plan to use the FM3 purely for effects. That way, if I crash and burn, I can bypass the FM3 and just let the analog pedals go to the amp. With this (and latency) in mind, I may run the looper with pedals entirely at the front and then send to the FM3 (i.e., no loop back out).

As I gain confidence, my next step will be to start using the amp/cab models, with the analog pedals at front of chain and go direct to FOH.

Those are some great pedals - a few not in the FM3 - and it sounds like you've got a pretty great setup. With your setup, though, I would go Guitar > analog pedalboard > Amp > FX Loop Send > FM3 Input [chorus, delay, reverb] > FM3 output > FX Loop Return; unless you plan on using some of the drives in the FM3 as well. Anyway, I'm sure you'll figure it out and it'll sound amazing. I've kind of wanted to pick up that Benson myself... I love the Morning Glory. I'm sure you could find a perfectly suitable compressor to replace the Keeley, though, and the Muffulletta is just a collection of classic fuzz circuits which are all in the FM3, as far as I'm aware

Lotta options!

 

[Pr0ject2500]

Hello All,

First post!!
I hate to intrude on this post, but I thought it a relevant thread, so my apologies.
I recently purchased an FM3 along with an HX Effects and a BOSS RC600. The idea is to use the HX Effects as a supplemental effects pedal and then the looper as a composition tool, which i would like to place in the fx loop of the HX Effects. I am, however, having doubts about the way everything needs to be set up and, more specifically, about how i arrange the signal chain in the FM3 to route certain effects from the HX before (drives,como,etc.) and after the amp (mid,delay,reverb) in the FM3 or at any point for that matter. I’ve included a diagram i drew up to give you guys an idea of what I’m thinking in terms of cable routing. I’m hoping that would help you all determine the best course of action for this particular setup. Any help with this would be immensely appreciated. Thank you!!

 

[sprint]

Don't know much about HXfx or RC but i suspect u can have fx pre/post loop in HXfx, and bypass RC, so, to get HX's fx pre/post amp from FM3 you could try something like this with FM3's loop placed before the FM3 drive/amp blocks:

• Guitar > FM3In
• FM3LoopSnd > HXIn > HX pre fx
• HXLoopSnd > FM3LoopRtn > FM3 drives / amp
• FM3Out > HXLoopRtn > HX post fx
• HXOut > RCIn
• RCOut > FRFR / external amp

This would also let u get some FM3 pre fx in play before going out to HX's pre fx (like wah, which, for some reason I find never sounds as good going through an fx loop (probably something I'm doing wrong).

Probably best to post this question in a new thread as it is not really latency related (routing)

 

[Will Chen]

Hello All,

First post!!
I hate to intrude on this post, but I thought it a relevant thread, so my apologies.
I recently purchased an FM3 along with an HX Effects and a BOSS RC600. The idea is to use the HX Effects as a supplemental effects pedal and then the looper as a composition tool, which i would like to place in the fx loop of the HX Effects. I am, however, having doubts about the way everything needs to be set up and, more specifically, about how i arrange the signal chain in the FM3 to route certain effects from the HX before (drives,como,etc.) and after the amp (mid,delay,reverb) in the FM3 or at any point for that matter. I’ve included a diagram i drew up to give you guys an idea of what I’m thinking in terms of cable routing. I’m hoping that would help you all determine the best course of action for this particular setup. Any help with this would be immensely appreciated. Thank you!!

First...did you buy this for theoretical usage or is there something specifically that you like in the HX Effects over the FM3? I have the HX Stomp and FM3 and haven't felt the need to power them up both together, the FM3 has more power available than some promote. Personally...unless you are looking to specifically use effects only on looped passages using the HXFX, I'd simply plug the output of the FM3 into the RC600 input and see if it works for you especially if latency is a concern.

 

[Pr0ject2500]

First...did you buy this for theoretical usage or is there something specifically that you like in the HX Effects over the FM3? I have the HX Stomp and FM3 and haven't felt the need to power them up both together, the FM3 has more power available than some promote. Personally...unless you are looking to specifically use effects only on looped passages using the HXFX, I'd simply plug the output of the FM3 into the RC600 input and see if it works for you especially if latency is a concern.

It’s actually more that I love the reverbs on the FM3 and plan on using them on high/ultra high to get the most out of them. I realized that if I do that, I’m going to be left with fewer options for other effects, hence the HX Effects.

 

[Pr0ject2500]

Don't know much about HXfx or RC but i suspect u can have fx pre/post loop in HXfx, and bypass RC, so, to get HX's fx pre/post amp from FM3 you could try something like this with FM3's loop placed before the FM3 drive/amp blocks:

• Guitar > FM3In
• FM3LoopSnd > HXIn > HX pre fx
• HXLoopSnd > FM3LoopRtn > FM3 drives / amp
• FM3Out > HXLoopRtn > HX post fx
• HXOut > RCIn
• RCOut > FRFR / external amp

This would also let u get some FM3 pre fx in play before going out to HX's pre fx (like wah, which, for some reason I find never sounds as good going through an fx loop (probably something I'm doing wrong).

Probably best to post this question in a new thread as it is not really latency related (routing)

 

[Pr0ject2500]

Thank you so much. I was thinking of the entire routing in reverse where I had the Hx going into the FM3 as opposed to the other way around. I really appreciate it.

 

[Will Chen]

It’s actually more that I love the reverbs on the FM3 and plan on using them on high/ultra high to get the most out of them. I realized that if I do that, I’m going to be left with fewer options for other effects, hence the HX Effects.

Well, you're going to be tripling or more your latency in this type of set up. Have you actually A/B tested a recorded track at the different settings to really ensure you need the reverbs at high quality?

 

[Pr0ject2500]

I have not, yet. If the difference is truly insignificant, I might end up just using the Hx for its poly pitch capabilities and whatever other effects I can’t on the FM3.

 

[sprint]

I can't tell the difference between hi / lo reverb so worth trying it to see if it makes a difference to you. Also, check out using cab block at 512 instead of max for more cpu savings - I can hear a slight difference but prefer 512. Lastly, I have whammy / dive / drop and octave all in one block with switching attached, so some savings there also maybe. A combination of these might mean u could jettison HX alltogether. As mentioned above latency could become an issue depending on your
tolerance as going out and back to any digital device without dry through adds 4 conversions (d>a,a>d,d>a,a>d - 2,3ms probably) - if hx has spdif u may be able to eliminate at least one loops' worth of a>d/d>a conversions.

 

[sprint]

one last thought - probably no sense going to HX in stereo for "pre" fx since afaik, u can only have one amp block in FM3 which will collapse a stereo pre signal to mono.

 

[Pr0ject2500]

one last thought - probably no sense going to HX in stereo for "pre" fx since afaik, u can only have one amp block in FM3 which will collapse a stereo pre signal to mono.

Thank you very much for that. I would have wasted a cable had you not mentioned that. I am really looking forward to see how all this pans out.