Interface and Computer Recommendations for Low Latency DAW Plugin Live Guitar Playing

guitarzen

guitarzen

Inspired
I am currently researching whether it's possible to use the SPDIF I/O from the Axe III through an interface to a computer running DAW post-processing plugins and play guitar with very low latency (i.e. < 5ms total). I am considering the Quantum 2626 Thunderbolt interface and the RME Babyface Pro FS interfaces, to a Mac M1 Max Studio with 32G RAM/ 512G SSD. It seems that I should be able to achieve a 2.0ms / 2.9ms latency through the Quantum / RME interfaces respectively running Logic Pro with a 32 buffer size, and 3.4ms / 4.5ms with a buffer size of 64 (from measurements others have posted online in Reddit, Gearspace, etc). I'm just planning on running a few plugins, such as Sunset Studios Reverb, Audio-thing Dolby Type A Compander, Eventide Harmonizer, EQ, etc. on my guitar rig output from the Axe FX III, then to studio monitors. I'm assuming that the Mac M1 Max 10 core processor (8 perf cores) can keep up with the 32 buffer size with 32G RAM, shouldn't be a problem I figure for such a powerful machine and such limited number of DAW plugins. Now I'm a total novice at this type of a setup, so I would like to hear from the experts in this forum who really know their s**t if they think this work or not, what they would recommend, and what their experiences are. I think this could be a potential game changer for being able to post process your Axe FX guitar rig signal with great plugins in real time with un-noticeably low latency for playing your guitar live or jamming.
 
I’ve done this a few times with my laptop and logic or mainstage set to the minimum USB buffer setting for the lowest latency. I just use the fractal unit’s built-in USB audio capability for this, no need for an additional interface and SPDIF. All my presets have the out1 block as usual, just set the input on your channel strip to USB 1+2 (Out1 block), and the output of the channel strip to USB 3+4 (hardware output 2), then connect the XLR cables to Fractal’s out2.

I adjust my levels in the DAW so the hardware out1 and out2 are exactly the same level. That way if there’s a USB failure I can just physically switch the XLRs from out2 to 1 and keep playing.

Usually I’ll just run a 1073/512 and some kind of 1176, but for live imo it’s not really worth it, fractal’s built-in saturation on the mic pre models is perfectly adequate for live.
 
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Yeah, that is what I do now but the latency is a bit more than I'd like when playing, and can vary depending on other USB functions that are running in the background, and when I have Axe Edit open during recording / tracking sessions, etc. This is definitely my fall back, I just want to see if we can do better latency wise
 
I'd trust RME to be able to do it if you really need native plugins to work in real time with minimal latency. Consider Universal Audio Apollo interfaces with their onboard DSP and their UAD2 plugins to do it as fast as possible through onboard DSP processing. You cannot use your plugins with UA, but you can likely find UAD equivalents to your chosen plugins.

I think strabes is right that you can find something close enough or equivalent in the Axe. The reverbs are amazing. Plenty of EQs, might be able to figure out the dolby trick in the axe.

Note: In general, with any decent interface, any time based effects can be bussed to a separate track and blended in real time without noticeable issues with a 100% wet mix (some unavoidable but basically unnoticeable slight predelay due to latency).
 
I agree that RME seems like a very trustworthy interface. The general consensus is that their USB drivers for Mac are world class, just not quite as low latency as Thunderbolt used by Presonus.
 
I have a babyface pro FS and use it all the time into a Mac Studio and a MacBook Air M1. I always use 32 samples at 48k and haven’t experience any issues while running tons of plugins and various DAWs. Though I don’t think there’s much to be gained (if any) over an Axe FX 3 if you also set the sample rate to 32 and use the USB as suggested in previous posts. It’s an extremely good interface in itself
 
guitarzen said:
Yeah, that is what I do now but the latency is a bit more than I'd like when playing, and can vary depending on other USB functions that are running in the background, and when I have Axe Edit open during recording / tracking sessions, etc. This is definitely my fall back, I just want to see if we can do better latency wise
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In that case I would get something with dedicated AES or coaxial SPDIF inputs. The babyface is excellent, very low latency, it's my main interface, but you'll have to convert the coaxial spdif output to toslink and I have not had good luck with that so I would not use it for this purpose, especially not live.
 
guitarzen said:
I am currently researching whether it's possible to use the SPDIF I/O from the Axe III through an interface to a computer running DAW post-processing plugins and play guitar with very low latency (i.e. < 5ms total). I am considering the Quantum 2626 Thunderbolt interface and the RME Babyface Pro FS interfaces, to a Mac M1 Max Studio with 32G RAM/ 512G SSD. It seems that I should be able to achieve a 2.0ms / 2.9ms latency through the Quantum / RME interfaces respectively running Logic Pro with a 32 buffer size, and 3.4ms / 4.5ms with a buffer size of 64 (from measurements others have posted online in Reddit, Gearspace, etc). I'm just planning on running a few plugins, such as Sunset Studios Reverb, Audio-thing Dolby Type A Compander, Eventide Harmonizer, EQ, etc. on my guitar rig output from the Axe FX III, then to studio monitors. I'm assuming that the Mac M1 Max 10 core processor (8 perf cores) can keep up with the 32 buffer size with 32G RAM, shouldn't be a problem I figure for such a powerful machine and such limited number of DAW plugins. Now I'm a total novice at this type of a setup, so I would like to hear from the experts in this forum who really know their s**t if they think this work or not, what they would recommend, and what their experiences are. I think this could be a potential game changer for being able to post process your Axe FX guitar rig signal with great plugins in real time with un-noticeably low latency for playing your guitar live or jamming.
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Just don't bother with the plugins, you don't need them. You're making things needlessly complicated for no gain as far as I can tell.
 
guitarzen said:
I am currently researching whether it's possible to use the SPDIF I/O from the Axe III through an interface to a computer running DAW post-processing plugins and play guitar with very low latency (i.e. < 5ms total). I am considering the Quantum 2626 Thunderbolt interface and the RME Babyface Pro FS interfaces, to a Mac M1 Max Studio with 32G RAM/ 512G SSD. It seems that I should be able to achieve a 2.0ms / 2.9ms latency through the Quantum / RME interfaces respectively running Logic Pro with a 32 buffer size, and 3.4ms / 4.5ms with a buffer size of 64 (from measurements others have posted online in Reddit, Gearspace, etc). I'm just planning on running a few plugins, such as Sunset Studios Reverb, Audio-thing Dolby Type A Compander, Eventide Harmonizer, EQ, etc. on my guitar rig output from the Axe FX III, then to studio monitors. I'm assuming that the Mac M1 Max 10 core processor (8 perf cores) can keep up with the 32 buffer size with 32G RAM, shouldn't be a problem I figure for such a powerful machine and such limited number of DAW plugins. Now I'm a total novice at this type of a setup, so I would like to hear from the experts in this forum who really know their s**t if they think this work or not, what they would recommend, and what their experiences are. I think this could be a potential game changer for being able to post process your Axe FX guitar rig signal with great plugins in real time with un-noticeably low latency for playing your guitar live or jamming.
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I know people like to view interfaces as having "good" or "bad" latency, but the way I look at it is: latency is largely determined by unchangeable laws of physics, not the skill of the interface designer. That means if you want lower latency, you can't simply build a better interface. Instead, you have to give something up. The two things that interfaces with low latency often give up are safety buffers and on-board processing. For example, interfaces with low latency often have no internal routing, which can be a real handicap in many situations. Also, regarding Thunderbolt, I would argue the primary advantage of Thunderbolt is throughput. It doesn't have a dramatic advantage over USB with regards to latency.

My point is: there is no free lunch, so be sure you know what you're giving up if you're intent on pursuing low latency.

One approach to consider for getting the lowest latency is to run your Axe-FX via 48K SPDIF to an audio interface capable of upsampling that on the fly to 96K, then running the interface USB at 96K into your computer. That might the best way to get the lowest latency from your gear.

Those must be some amazing effects you're applying in the computer to make this worthwhile :).
 
GlennO said:
I know people like to view interfaces as having "good" or "bad" latency, but the way I look at it is: latency is largely determined by unchangeable laws of physics, not the skill of the interface designer. That means if you want lower latency, you can't simply build a better interface. Instead, you have to give something up. The two things that interfaces with low latency often give up are safety buffers and on-board processing. For example, interfaces with low latency often have no internal routing, which can be a real handicap in many situations. Also, regarding Thunderbolt, I would argue the primary advantage of Thunderbolt is throughput. It doesn't have a dramatic advantage over USB with regards to latency.

My point is: there is no free lunch, so be sure you know what you're giving up if you're intent on pursuing low latency.

One approach to consider for getting the lowest latency is to run your Axe-FX via 48K SPDIF to an audio interface capable of upsampling that on the fly to 96K, then running the interface USB at 96K into your computer. That might the best way to get the lowest latency from your gear.

Those must be some amazing effects you're applying in the computer to make this worthwhile :).
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This was kind of the point I trying to make for using the Axe USB vs going to another interface. Seems like a very big extra cost for minimal latency gains. It’s already a fast interface and is at the point of diminishing returns. If OP has the cash and it’s worth it to them who am I to judge. I can only imagine how much money I’ve spent on guitar stuff over the years.

I do go in the box quite often though and I own most of the eventide stuff and also sunset studios. Nothing there really groundbreaking that can’t be done in the Axe. For mastering/mixing sure there are plugins better suited, but for tracking guitars not sure there’s much better than what’s in the Axe already.
 
Not really much hassle from my point of view to look at just adding an interface with low latency. My computer is a 10 year old Mac laptop so I'm replacing it anyway, just zeroing in on what I want (Mac Mini, Mac Studio, etc), as I'm going to add a nice wide monitor for my setup. So it really just comes down to whether I add a low latency interface for ~ $600 to provide more general purpose capability to run any DAW plugins I want in real time. I already have the DAW and use the plugins when mastering recorded tracks in post. I just thought adding a low latency interface could open up more capability.
 
guitarzen said:
Not really much hassle from my point of view to look at just adding an interface with low latency. My computer is a 10 year old Mac laptop so I'm replacing it anyway, just zeroing in on what I want (Mac Mini, Mac Studio, etc), as I'm going to add a nice wide monitor for my setup. So it really just comes down to whether I add a low latency interface for ~ $600 to provide more general purpose capability to run any DAW plugins I want in real time. I already have the DAW and use the plugins when mastering recorded tracks in post. I just thought adding a low latency interface could open up more capability.
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Spend the extra on the computer for sure. FWIW I bought a Mac Studio when they came out and it’s been absolutely flawless. I do a lot of heavy photo/video editing along with music. It’s completely silent, small, and has more power than I’d need even as a pretty heavy power user. I don’t even know if I’ve ever restarted it other than updates.
 
Do you have an interface currently? One of my setups is axefx spdif out to spdif in on Presonus Quantum2 into studio one. Latency is very low, from memory around RTL 3ms at 128 and 48khz, it can go under 2ms at higher settings.
 
You have 14 calendar days to return a Mac from the date you received it.
Start low to spend less and move up if you need to.

That said, if it were me I'd do it all in the Axe-Fx! I haven't met an effect plugin yet that I'd ever need to use for live guitar.
 
Thanks Matt. I agree, less of an issue for live guitar in a band context, more that I would like to be able to track guitars with all post effects/processing in real time or hear the effects playing in real time before recording or just playing with low latency. Seems like it would be very gratifying to be able to play the final finished guitar sound in real time, not just listening back and adding in post which is the usual way.
 
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