Dynamics while using AxeFX2 with a PA+cab

somniumaeternum

somniumaeternum

Member
So, I'm a long term AxeFX user. I recently got into getting real amps again just for the GAS of it basically, and I have a few different ones. I've been playing a lot on my Mesa JP2C, and I have a patch based on the IIC++ that sounds fantastic on my FR-FR. This is how I normally play/record.

One of this things I've been trying to play around with is hooking the AxeFX2 up to a real cab to get a more in the room sound. In some practice/jams I've been, using FRFR next to someone using a cranked amp tended to have it get lost some. So I got a Crown XLS1000 from a friend and hooked the AxeFX with a few different cabs (2x12 with CL80s and a Mesa Rectifier 2x12 w/ V30s). I can get it to sound good, but it just isn't getting the same grunt/mids coming to life that I get when I get the JP2C up loud.

I read some tips here http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2...r_cabinet#Use_a_neutral_solid-state_power_amp and so I played around with the Low Resonance and it gets a little closer. I'm not cranking it in my amp and I think a lot of that has to do with the speaker just going full on, so all things considered I think I can get there with some tweaking. It's promising basically and I'll check it out more when I can crank it.

The main thing is that the amp just doesn't feel as responsive as the actual one in terms of dynamics. It basically seems like there's just more compression somehow even though I don't have any compressors in the chain. Is there a setting I can use to tweak this a bit? The AxeFX feels actually more present, the Mesa has a bit of a sagginess to the response, where you really have to hit harder. So it seems like the signal is just a bit hotter on the AxeFX somehow

I thought maybe some of the gear I was running was cutting down the dynamics of the signal, but my signal chain is pretty basic: Line6 G90 -> Dunlop DCR-2SR Wah -> Axefx. I don't think there's anything there that could be compressing things that much, if at all. The G90 doesn't even really have a signal gain control as far as I know.

Any ideas?
 
I'm assuming a few things here, but have you tried pointing your FRFR at your knees like a normal cab would be pointed? Or even just away from you? This has been the magical "amp in a room" sound for many since it isn't directly at your ears/head, and it's bouncing sound around the room. Just a thought.
 
chris said:
I'm assuming a few things here, but have you tried pointing your FRFR at your knees like a normal cab would be pointed? Or even just away from you? This has been the magical "amp in a room" sound for many since it isn't directly at your ears/head, and it's bouncing sound around the room. Just a thought.
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Yep I've tried that but it isn't really the same for me.

But really I'm wondering more about the compression level than just general sound at this point.
 
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Maybe you just need to retweak the patch when you switch from FRFR to your other cab? You switch so of course things will sound a bit off. Maybe, even though u don't want comp, add a comp and do some cutting in the block. Try it, keep tweaking! lol
 
Billbill said:
Maybe you just need to retweak the patch when you switch from FRFR to your other cab? You switch so of course things will sound a bit off. Maybe, even though u don't want comp, add a comp and do some cutting in the block. Try it, keep tweaking! lol
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Yeah I tweaked the patch according to the wiki article I posted earlier, and also tried have literally just the amp block. Also tried different amp models.
 
You mentioned that the real amp sags more than the axe - to me this sounds like the real amp is more compressed?

Try adjusting supply sag in the amp sim. There are several (many) ways to make the axe tone less present. I think that speaker drive (in the amp sim) was a recent addition that darkens the tone in response to how hard you play (drive the speaker).

You are probably also aware to defeat the powe amp modelling (or not, as you prefer) when using a PA and cab. Some people like the PA sim on. I am not sure but if you play with the PA sim on you might need to adjust the resonant peaks in the speaker page of the amp block to zero -Im not sure about that. Maybe someone who plays through cabs this way can confirm
 
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JJunkie said:
You mentioned that the real amp sags more than the axe - to me this sounds like the real amp is more compressed?
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I may be using the term incorrectly.. what I mean is how with some power sections it feels like you hit a note and there's a few ms before you hear it. I've heard different people call it different things, most call it sag but I'm actually not 100%. For context: I've played for a long time on solid state pieces (Digitech 2101, etc) so I'm used to that immediate response. Just the last few years I've been enjoying more of the tube stuff.

Also, technically I'm not sure if more compressed is the most accurate way of saying what I'm hearing. Basically, it feels like the dynamic "window" is smaller - the how hard I can play is still the same but I can play softer on the JP2C even though it doesn't necessarily feel compressed. I was just trying to come up with a simple way of describing it. Hoping it makes sense somewhat.

JJunkie said:
Try adjusting input sag in the amp sim. There are several (many) ways to make the axe tone less present. I think that speaker drive (in the amp sim) was a recent addition that darkens the tone in response to how hard you play (drive the speaker).
Click to expand...

I'll play around with the speaker drive more.

JJunkie said:
You are probably also aware to defeat the powe amp modelling (or not, as you prefer) when using a PA and cab. Some people like the PA sim on. I am not sure but if you play with the PA sim on you might need to adjust the resonant peaks in the speaker page of the amp block to zero -Im not sure about that. Maybe someone who plays through cabs this way can confirm
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I'm using a pretty neutral PA so I left the power amp model on the Axe on, but removed the cab. If I turn off the PA modeling on the Axe, wouldn't it feel more solid state?

I played with adjusting the Low resonance there, but I will definitely take more time (as soon as I have it!) to really go through everything.I was just able to hook everything up and give it a first shot to hear how it was. Tweaking was only maybe 20-30. I'll spend more time with it, but I figured someone could point me in the right direction and save me some time ☺️
 
Can you clarify what gear you are using please?
And if you are running a signal through a PA.
 
I just went through this. I played through monitors until I got a power amp and cab about half a year ago. Talk about transition from this thing is awesome to I hate this box and a nice dual recto is cheap. I dug through forums for a long time.

My ultimate "I'm an idiot" moment was when I remembered the looper. Putting it in front of the amp block and tweak away while that's playing back. That right there was when I realized I could get any sound I wanted. I play through a mesa cab. Somehow while doing this and I'm not 100% certain what did the feel thing (B+ time? Negative feedback? Supply sag? All the Comp parameters in advanced? Literally tweaking everything?) but somewhere along the looper trip I had all the feeling back that we are all used to. It's in there somewhere I can attest to that.

Keep the amp sims on, cab off. If you turn up the speaker drive or motor drive you're going to have a bad time I can almost promise you that.

That's my advice, use the looper and literally mess with everything.
 
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Oh and I read this wiki a hundred times \fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AMP_block#CHARACTER_TYPE.2C_CHARACTER_FREQUENCY.2C_CHARACTER_Q.2C_CHARACTER_AMOUNT

Put the wiki. in front of that, I still can't post links.

I would also like to know which magic knob is the one that did it or is it just a happy coincidental combination you stumble on. If you figure anything out.....I won't have more time to play with it until this weekend. I do usually completely jack up supply sag and negative feedback. Probably the only two parameters I also do that with.
 
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scottp said:
Can you clarify what gear you are using please?

And if you are running a signal through a PA.
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The full signal chain w/ cab is:
Line6 G90 Wireless -> Dunlop DCR-2SR Wah -> AxeFX II -> Crown XLS1000 PA -> various cabs

For comparison, my normal FRFR setup is:

Line6 G90 Wireless -> Dunlop DCR-2SR Wah -> AxeFX II -> QSC K12s (x2)


Teh Brootalz said:
I just went through this. I played through monitors until I got a power amp and cab about half a year ago. Talk about transition from this thing is awesome to I hate this box and a nice dual recto is cheap. I dug through forums for a long time.

My ultimate "I'm an idiot" moment was when I remembered the looper. Putting it in front of the amp block and tweak away while that's playing back. That right there was when I realized I could get any sound I wanted. I play through a mesa cab. Somehow while doing this and I'm not 100% certain what did the feel thing (B+ time? Negative feedback? Supply sag? All the Comp parameters in advanced? Literally tweaking everything?) but somewhere along the looper trip I had all the feeling back that we are all used to. It's in there somewhere I can attest to that.

Keep the amp sims on, cab off. If you turn up the speaker drive or motor drive you're going to have a bad time I can almost promise you that.

That's my advice, use the looper and literally mess with everything.
Click to expand...

My concern is that I want it to feel like the actual amp; in the past, I've done a lot of tweaking so that some patches actually sounded/felt more like what I wanted (i.e. better than actual amps to me). This time though it's more of an exercise of getting that tone/feel of the JP2C without lugging it around or needed a lot of mics and room to crank it for recording.

I would imagine that the amp block itself should remain pretty much at the defaults for this right? Other than some minimal tweaking for the low resonance as mentioned earlier, and other small things to make it play well with external cabs.

Teh Brootalz said:
Oh and I read this wiki a hundred times \fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AMP_block#CHARACTER_TYPE.2C_CHARACTER_FREQUENCY.2C_CHARACTER_Q.2C_CHARACTER_AMOUNT

Put the wiki. in front of that, I still can't post links.

I would also like to know which magic knob is the one that did it or is it just a happy coincidental combination you stumble on. If you figure anything out.....I won't have more time to play with it until this weekend. I do usually completely jack up supply sag and negative feedback. Probably the only two parameters I also do that with.
Click to expand...

I"ll read up on that and play around with Character.

In terms of sound, if I'm understanding your last remark correctly, I think a lot of it has to do with speaker distortion so you have to push some output through the actual cab - which I wasn't really able to do last night. I got to where I started hearing that being affected the more I turned it up so I'm somewhat happy. I need to play with it more. The thing to consider is that turning up the volume of the model isn't the same as turning on master on the amp, so you wouldn't expect for it to become tighter and more mid-present.. you'd just get that from the start. Not hearing that transition can affect how you perceive the sound.. and I think I was falling prey to that too.

As another note, I played on my friends powered Kemper through a cab yesterday as well and he was able to switch between FRFR and cabs without any tweaking. I'm not sure if those have an additional circuit to allow for this or some compensation somehow, but it was interesting that it was pretty seamless on that platform. The outcome still sounded better on the AxeFX i think but it felt "right" without any tweaking. This is another thing to leads me to think it's not so much about the model, but just some setting somewhere else..
 
Instead of making your rig louder to compete, why not have the other guitarist turn down ?

Really aren't many situations where a FRFR system can't get more than loud enough, and even then it's going to be at a level that is damaging to your hearing.

I'm in the business of hearing aids and tinnitus management so "volume wars" will keep me working, but they really are counter productive as a whole.
 
I'll just throw out there that leaving everything at default only worked when I played through monitors. Unless I'm doing something really wrong when I went to power amp and cab that went out the window in my case. I totally know what you're saying because I'm still trying to work through it too. I really went to town this past weekend on this exact subject so I'm still learning too. Just hoping to maybe help each other out or I could give you a lead in a direction.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Instead of making your rig louder to compete, why not have the other guitarist turn down ?

Really aren't many situations where a FRFR system can't get more than loud enough, and even then it's going to be at a level that is damaging to your hearing.

I'm in the business of hearing aids and tinnitus management so "volume wars" will keep me working, but they really are counter productive as a whole.
Click to expand...

It's not about loudness at all, it's just getting lost in the mix. I found that often the amps, at the same volume, feel more present in the room and just mask the sound from my FRFR monitors.

Teh Brootalz said:
I'll just throw out there that leaving everything at default only worked when I played through monitors. Unless I'm doing something really wrong when I went to power amp and cab that went out the window in my case. I totally know what you're saying because I'm still trying to work through it too. I really went to town this past weekend on this exact subject so I'm still learning too. Just hoping to maybe help each other out or I could give you a lead in a direction.
Click to expand...

Yeah definitely man, it's helpful even just thinking through it on here! I'll play around with it when I get home and see how that affects things.
 
My 2 cts.
Put your amp and cab and your Axe-fx and FRFR side by side and start to tweak to copy the sound of the real amp as good as possible.
You will find that you add way more mids than you would have done usually and you lower lows and highs a bit and you will notice that you tweak at a different volume. Also you might set the gain lower.
You wouldn't tell such a sound in any way as awesome and full sounding at home. But it will cut easily with the band.
Once you have one of that kind you can take that to compare and retweak other sounds.
 
The above is a good point - when you tweak an amp you don't have the control over volume that you do with a modeller. As a result, you're going to be tweaking the latter in a much less volume-friendly way... Fletcher and Munson will haunt you.

Tweak your settings really loud - if possible, ask your band to jam and loop a riff with the Loop block, so you can get in there and tweak mids, highs, lows etc for volume and in the band context.

And lower your gain.
 
I've been trying to make my axe fx sound like a JP2C for over a year because I don't want to buy one, guess what? I'm going to have to buy one. If you figure it out please share the preset but I haven't been able to do it. The axe fx distortion seems like a crunch to me where the real JP2C has a smoothness and liquid feel that I can't seem to replicate with any c+ model.
 
Hello,
Maybe it will not be useful, but I would do a couple of checks also for what you use in front of the AXE-FX ....

I was hit by these two paragraphs of your first post

somniumaeternum said:
The main thing is that the amp just doesn't feel as responsive as the actual one in terms of dynamics. It basically seems like there's just more compression somehow even though I don't have any compressors in the chain. Is there a setting I can use to tweak this a bit? The AxeFX feels actually more present, the Mesa has a bit of a sagginess to the response, where you really have to hit harder. So it seems like the signal is just a bit hotter on the AxeFX somehow

I thought maybe some of the gear I was running was cutting down the dynamics of the signal, but my signal chain is pretty basic: Line6 G90 -> Dunlop DCR-2SR Wah -> Axefx. I don't think there's anything there that could be compressing things that much, if at all. The G90 doesn't even really have a signal gain control as far as I know.
Click to expand...

Now, your wireless system may actually affect your sound, by using the "Cable Tone" function, which simulates the cable capacitance ... as the the manual say

"Cable Tone - Guitar cables have a natural electrical property called capacitance.This Means that longer cables roll off more high frequencies.
You can use Cable Tone to simulate the effects of different guitar cable lengths and styles. "

I use a line6 G70 and a G75, and in both of them I set the length of the cable to ten feet.

You can also check, and if necessary adjust the output level (analog domain) of your receiver. Again from the manual:

"(Firmware V2.0 or later)
The default output from the G90 receiver is +0 dB or unity gain. This allows a connected amplifier to use the same input level with the G90 as it would if a guitar were connected by cable. If a boost or attenuation is required, the G90 AF Gain can be adjusted using the following procedure:"

Also in this case, on my transmitters I slightly adjusted the output signal level for less gain ... Especially for active pickup guitars

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure if a guitar comes in a "true" amplifier always and only with a 0dB audio signal, especially if we take into account all the effects that are connected first ....

I hope this helps a bit

Massimo
 
What the influence of the cable was can easliy get tried out. Just put your usual guitar cable between the guitar and the transmitter, so you can hear your real cable instead of an emulation of it.
 
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