Correct EQ for FRFR speakers with FM3

Paulzx

Paulzx

Inspired
So I have my FM3 connected directly to two Yamaha HS7 FRFR speakers. These speakers have room balance controls on the back. You can reduce bass by 2db or 4db, and increase or lower the treble by 2db.

At the moment I have bass set at -4db and treble at zero (no reduction or increase). I decided to cut the bass to 4db because the speakers are on stands near the corners of a quite small guitar room, so naturally I didn't want boomy FM3 tones. I was quite happy with that but now I find myself re-considering if I'm doing this right, for the following reason...

I saw some forum advice recently for optimum FRFR results, you should set any EQ controls on the speakers by playing music tracks you know well, so album tracks or singles etc, decide on what sounds best and set it there. Then your Fractal tones will be optimal to begin with.

My dilemma now is that if I play Spotify or youtube tracks - or any mp3's through these speakers, it sounds epic when the room controls are changed to zero bass cut and treble boosted by 2db. It doesn't sound as good when I use my FM3 settings above. However, the FM3 doesn't sound as good with the new settings!

Occasionally I use the speakers to play music through when I'm not playing guitar, so I don't want to be forever switching the room controls backwards and forwards.
I think I need to know how you guys approached this issue, for my own peace of mind. I suppose the options are either leave it on the original settings for the FM3 and just accept music play back won't be optimal, or set the room controls for optimal music play back and try to EQ my FM3 tones to suit that.

No doubt some of you have done this and come to a conclusion?
 
I would say the -4 is the "correct" setting for you installation. It is probably more accurate in the frequency range the monitors are meant to output. no harm in turning the bass up if you like the sound though. and you can EQ it out on the FM3's overall EQ if you didn't want to go back and forth. Just keep in mind you did that if you plug into another monitor of some sort, it may lack bass and you can revert the settings.
 
If you're adjusting the tone of your speakers to match what you want the FM3 to sound like, you're working backwards. The EQ controls on your monitors are intended to adjust for defects in the listening environment--like one speaker being near a wall or a corner of the room, the monitors being acoustically coupled to a piece of furniture, etc.

Set the monitor controls so that a wide range of material sounds great to you, and then work a bit harder in the FM3 to get the sound you want. The IR's inside the FM3 are more or less a naked representation of a mic-ed up guitar cab, and need a bit of sculpting to get them to sound more like a "record" or "live guitar tone". Some aftermarket IR makers do a bit of this sculpting ahead of convolving the files and that's why many users find them to be a bit more "plug & play" than the stock IRs.

Judicious use of the low cut control in the cab block is your friend. If I'm using a bassy model and a particularly bassy IR, I might need to high pass north of 200hZ to keep the low end sufficiently reined in.
 
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Some things to consider:
  • The HS7s are full range down to ~50Hz then drop off pretty quickly, and up to about 12KHz then drop off about 6db to 20Khz - these are already a really good range for guitar tones but I would still filter everything below 70Hz and above 8.5KHz-10Khz in your cabinet blocks.
  • While technically the HS7s are full range, they are NOT flat response - there's a 2db drop between 50Hz - 100Hz, a 2db drop around 870Hz, a 3db dip at 2kHz and a 4db peak at 12.5KHz (all of these measurements are at the tweeter and do NOT take room treatment "reflections" into consideration).
  • If you are really concerned about this, I would recommend that get an inexpensive test mic and use REW to get a measurement in the room, and then add an eq block to the end of your effects chain to compensate for your monitor/room measurements. Alternatively, I use IK Multimedia's ARC Studio (includes the testing mic/software and a hardware device), inline between my DAW/FM9 and monitors to get the most out of my home studio setup.
  • BTW: There are VERY few monitors that are truly "Flat Response" at the cone, and NONE will be flat response in the room without some amount of DSP/EQ correction (amount will vary depending on room treatment). This is NOT a problem!!
  • Since everyone's hearing is different, you can ignore everything I posted above and just go with what sounds good to "your" ears in your environment.
 
kywabunga said:
If you're adjusting the tone of your speakers to match what you want the FM3 to sound like, you're working backwards. The EQ controls on your monitors are intended to adjust for defects in the listening environment--like one speaker being near a wall or a corner of the room, the monitors being acoustically coupled to a piece of furniture, etc.

Set the monitor controls so that a wide range of material sounds great to you, and then work a bit harder in the FM3 to get the sound you want. The IR's inside the FM3 are more or less a naked representation of a mic-ed up guitar cab, and need a bit of sculpting to get them to sound more like a "record" or "live guitar tone". Some aftermarket IR makers do a bit of this sculpting ahead of convolving the files and that's why many users find them to be a bit more "plug & play" than the stock IRs.

Judicious use of the low cut control in the cab block is your friend. If I'm using a bassy model and a particularly bassy IR, I might need to high pass north of 200hZ to keep the low end sufficiently reined in.
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Well this approach would favour setting the speakers up for recorded music first and foremost then, and tailoring the FM3 to suit. Exactly what I've been contemplating
 
Most people when they hear music through a system that is truly flat think it is thin (lacking bass) and lifeless (lacking highs). Most people have gotten used to hearing music through systems that hype the bass and treble because they sell more systems that way. If you think the music sounds "epic", odds are it isn't anywhere near flat.
 
There is no one correct EQ. EQ is adjustable on mixers, speakers and more because the room and other objects affect how things sound. It is very common to adjust EQ in a mixer when playing at different venues to adjust your sound to the room.

Just pick something, stick with it and create your tones so they are consistent and all would need the same EQ adjustment at a different room.
 
Paulzx said:
Well this approach would favour setting the speakers up for recorded music first and foremost then, and tailoring the FM3 to suit. Exactly what I've been contemplating
Click to expand...
Yep. 100%.

Think of it this way: if your speakers sound how you want them to sound, and represent the sounds you listen to in an accurate way, then the sounds that you create on that system are far more likely to reflect your intentions, fit with those other kinds of sounds, and sound good on other sound systems. It's literally the problem that mix engineers have been dealing with since the birth of recorded music: "how do I make this sound good not only here, but everywhere?" There's no question in my mind that you're far better off sculpting your FM3 to fit alongside known examples great-sounding, professionally-produced music, rather than working the other way around. (Unless you're perfectly happy, never intend to play anywhere else, and never intend to show anyone your music outside of that room.)

This is what I meant when I suggested that EQing your system to make the FM3 sound better is working in the opposite direction. You're losing perspective compared to all other recorded music and the moment you decide take those tones somewhere that doesn't care about your room or the EQ you had to dial in, you're gonna to run into some pretty glaring issues.

That said, just having your speakers dialed in to where they sound best doesn't necessarily mean the FM3 is gonna be perfect when you load a patch. The Fractal stuff has a very open/unprocessed/unproduced sound to me, and just because you're system is dialed-in doesn't mean you won't need to make further improvements. If anything, you're just closer to a "neutral" reference and are able to make more informed decisions about what adjustments to perform next.
 
Randall d said:
Most people when they hear music through a system that is truly flat think it is thin (lacking bass) and lifeless (lacking highs). Most people have gotten used to hearing music through systems that hype the bass and treble because they sell more systems that way. If you think the music sounds "epic", odds are it isn't anywhere near flat.
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It's not flat, when I put the bass control to zero, which is no cut at all, and the treble on +2db, it is clearly boosting the music play back, but in a way that would be very pleasing to listen to through a hi fi system. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking how people have approached this in their own setup.
 
chris said:
There is no one correct EQ. EQ is adjustable on mixers, speakers and more because the room and other objects affect how things sound. It is very common to adjust EQ in a mixer when playing at different venues to adjust your sound to the room.

Just pick something, stick with it and create your tones so they are consistent and all would need the same EQ adjustment at a different room.
Click to expand...
How did you approach this yourself, with your own speakers? setting up for play back or setting up for FM3?
 
kywabunga said:
Yep. 100%.

Think of it this way: if your speakers sound how you want them to sound, and represent the sounds you listen to in an accurate way, then the sounds that you create on that system are far more likely to reflect your intentions, fit with those other kinds of sounds, and sound good on other sound systems. It's literally the problem that mix engineers have been dealing with since the birth of recorded music: "how do I make this sound good not only here, but everywhere?" There's no question in my mind that you're far better off sculpting your FM3 to fit alongside known examples great-sounding, professionally-produced music, rather than working the other way around. (Unless you're perfectly happy, never intend to play anywhere else, and never intend to show anyone your music outside of that room.)

This is what I meant when I suggested that EQing your system to make the FM3 sound better is working in the opposite direction. You're losing perspective compared to all other recorded music and the moment you decide take those tones somewhere that doesn't care about your room or the EQ you had to dial in, you're gonna to run into some pretty glaring issues.

That said, just having your speakers dialed in to where they sound best doesn't necessarily mean the FM3 is gonna be perfect when you load a patch. The Fractal stuff has a very open/unprocessed/unproduced sound to me, and just because you're system is dialed-in doesn't mean you won't need to make further improvements. If anything, you're just closer to a "neutral" reference and are able to make more informed decisions about what adjustments to perform next.
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Thanks for this, I think this is what i was after really, just a bit of experience to back up the original comment I heard about setting up your speakers for best music play back. I had actually never listened to any play back on my HS7's originally, I just plugged my FM3 straight in to it and started making presets from there. Even when I played along with recorded tracks, I wasn't really considering how the track itself sounded. It was only when I wasn't playing guitar, and I was just listening to an album playing back through them, that I realised it sounded quite a bit better with those room controls bumped up.

So from that perspective, and going on what you've said above, I think I will try to adjust some of my presets for the new speaker EQ. I realise the whole 'FRFR' debate is around making the speakers as neutral as possible, but at the end of the day we all want everything to sound as good as it can don't we? This is why I, and likely most of us, continually question the tones we're making
 
Hi Paul,

I’d set them up to make music you know well sound exactly (or as close as possible) how it should sound. If you do that, you are assured that your FM3 sounds will sound how they should. (If they are crap, you can change them).
Another more scientific approach is to get some software like REW, and a calibration mic, which can be got pretty cheap on Amazon and the like, and actually see what the response is like. This approach is a bit of a rabbit hole however, and may not be worth the trouble.
So - again I suggest adjusting the speakers so music you know well, sounds like it should.

Thanks
Pauly



Paulzx said:
So I have my FM3 connected directly to two Yamaha HS7 FRFR speakers. These speakers have room balance controls on the back. You can reduce bass by 2db or 4db, and increase or lower the treble by 2db.

At the moment I have bass set at -4db and treble at zero (no reduction or increase). I decided to cut the bass to 4db because the speakers are on stands near the corners of a quite small guitar room, so naturally I didn't want boomy FM3 tones. I was quite happy with that but now I find myself re-considering if I'm doing this right, for the following reason...

I saw some forum advice recently for optimum FRFR results, you should set any EQ controls on the speakers by playing music tracks you know well, so album tracks or singles etc, decide on what sounds best and set it there. Then your Fractal tones will be optimal to begin with.

My dilemma now is that if I play Spotify or youtube tracks - or any mp3's through these speakers, it sounds epic when the room controls are changed to zero bass cut and treble boosted by 2db. It doesn't sound as good when I use my FM3 settings above. However, the FM3 doesn't sound as good with the new settings!

Occasionally I use the speakers to play music through when I'm not playing guitar, so I don't want to be forever switching the room controls backwards and forwards.
I think I need to know how you guys approached this issue, for my own peace of mind. I suppose the options are either leave it on the original settings for the FM3 and just accept music play back won't be optimal, or set the room controls for optimal music play back and try to EQ my FM3 tones to suit that.

No doubt some of you have done this and come to a conclusion?
Click to expand...
 
Are you performing outside your home studio? If not, set it however makes you happy.

If so, how it sounds in your studio isn’t what I’d focus on - I’d focus on how it sounds where you perform and then set up your home environment to give you the ability to tweak your presets there in a way that you know will translate to the performance environments.
 
Rumbletone said:
Are you performing outside your home studio? If not, set it however makes you happy.

If so, how it sounds in your studio isn’t what I’d focus on - I’d focus on how it sounds where you perform and then set up your home environment to give you the ability to tweak your presets there in a way that you know will translate to the performance environments.
Click to expand...
Just using this setup at home, so it doesn't have to translate to any other environment.

I started out by cutting the bass on these speakers by the full 4db, being aware of them being close to the walls in a small room, and knowing how boomy some guitar tones seem to sound particularly on modelers, so I always considered that would be a good approach.

Then I played the new Judas Priest album through the speakers and just listened without playing any guitar. What surprised me was the album sounded a bit lacking in the low end, so I took off the 4db bass cut room control and the album sounded bloody fantastic. A nice heavy low end but not muddy.

That got me questioning if it was correct to cut the bass on the speakers when using the FM3. I never had a reference for the best sound until I really listened properly to the music play back in isolation
 
I use Sonarworks software, which uses a measured testing mic to capture sweeps and IRs all around the room, and then EQs my monitors to compensate and make the resulting tone truly flat. This way I know that what I’m hearing from the FM3 is what I am “meant” to hear when Fractal created the model.
 
pauly said:
Hi Paul,

I’d set them up to make music you know well sound exactly (or as close as possible) how it should sound. If you do that, you are assured that your FM3 sounds will sound how they should. (If they are crap, you can change them).
Another more scientific approach is to get some software like REW, and a calibration mic, which can be got pretty cheap on Amazon and the like, and actually see what the response is like. This approach is a bit of a rabbit hole however, and may not be worth the trouble.
So - again I suggest adjusting the speakers so music you know well, sounds like it should.

Thanks
Pauly
Click to expand...
It's a rabbit hole indeed! I just posted my experiences in the amps and cabs section.
 
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