Does a Fender Twin sound the same on FM3 as it does on FM9/Axe FX?

[ZalicX]

To explain, this is mostly a question about the similarity of the modeling algorithm between units.

So for example let's say you load up a Fender Twin reverb on the FM3/Turbo, FM9/Turbo, and Axe III. Provided they're all updated to their current firmware version, would there be any noticeable difference for recording purposes?

I want to get into Fractal again after selling my Axe III a while back, and I'm trying to decide if going all out again is worth it for me.

For my usage case, I use outboard effects and really only need an amp and cab sim. I've been told the best amp sim you can buy is one made by Fractal.

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Or I could just say eh and get a Tonex. My usage case is very limited (lucky me when you think about it), so a lot of extra features seem unnecessary. Unfortunately, they packed all the good stuff in the bigger box.

What would be the next step down from the Axe/FM lineup, Helix?

A lot of questions in here, but let me know your thoughts! Genuinely curious.

Side note: If the Axe III and FM9 and FM3 having different processors is true. Why is that the case? With how powerful tech is getting in such small components, I'd think I would be able to get the power of a bigger system into a smaller box. An Axe FX Light that's literally just the amp and cab portion of the modeling in a box would be a product that would absolutely shake the game up. People who want to use pedals can keep using pedals into the Axe FX Light and benefit from the best amp simulation tech in the industry.

 

[strabes]

FM3 is usually the last unit to receive amp modeling updates as they are first released on AX3 and then implemented onto the other two units. But it’s not a big deal as the improvements are incremental and eventually make it to the other units anyway.

Here’s a quote from Cliff (the owner) about the differences: “The Axe-Fx III contains various algorithms that allow you to enhance the amp modeling that don't exist on a real amp. I.e. dynamic presence/depth, input dynamic processing, etc. These were removed to allow the core amp modeling to run on the lower-powered processor.”
You can read more here: https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_III,_FM9_and_FM3

So with that said I wouldn’t worry about the amp modeling differences between the units, for the core amp sounds they’re identical. The main thing you’ll need to think about is whether you need to run one or two amp + cab blocks simultaneously. If you run everything into the front of the amps then I suspect you’ll want the ability to run two amps to preserve the stereo image of your wet fx, which eliminates the FM3 from consideration. If you don’t need two amps and one amp is fine then the FM3 will more than fit the bill. It’s worth noting that the fractal amps take drives and wet effects into the front way better than any other platform I’ve ever tried.

Regarding the tonex pedal, again it’s mono in so that eliminates any stereo fx into the front. And personally in my experience messing with the pedal it has exactly the same problems as kemper i.e. you spend all your time scrolling through profiles and once you find one that’s decent, as soon as you turn a knob it sounds nothing like the original amp. Modeling is just a superior paradigm because the knobs respond like the original amps so you can dial in things how you want, or use factory presets or buy commercial presets if you don’t want to dial anything in.

Helix is decent, I used that platform full time for 4 years prior to fractal, but it pales in comparison to the power of fractal, and the amp modeling is just not nearly as accurate or easy to dial in. The UI is more dummy proof, but you’ll spend 10x as long trying to get it to sound right, always chasing something weird in the high end or whatever, and never quite get there. Whereas in 5 minutes with my first fractal unit I had better / more accurate tones from my main amp than I ever got from helix.

Personally if I were not playing live I would not buy any hardware and just use some free or inexpensive amp modeling plugins. Run your pedalboard into your interface’s instrument inputs and go. Spend the money on better studio monitors or acoustic treatment. Fractal has the best modeling for sure (and the lowest noise high-z input I've ever used), but plugins like guitar rig, amplitube, neural, etc, are pretty good these days and take up no physical space.

 

[kywabunga]

So for example let's say you load up a Fender Twin reverb on the FM3/Turbo, FM9/Turbo, and Axe III. Provided they're all updated to their current firmware version, would there be any noticeable difference for recording purposes?

100% yes. Thankfully, you also can use your ears and move knobs. I submit that it's easier (and cheaper) to find great sounds in modern modeling boxes compared to striking gold with a dwindling supply of questionably-maintained, heavily-marked-up vintage gear.

Also, YouTube documents this fairly well. Have you tried visiting YouTube?

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Experiment with multiple units and find out what works best for you.

Or I could just say eh and get a Tonex. My usage case is very limited (lucky me when you think about it), so a lot of extra features seem unnecessary. Unfortunately, they packed all the good stuff in the bigger box.

What would be the next step down from the Axe/FM lineup, Helix?

If you're asking the internet where you should spend your money, I have a YouTube channel you can like and subscribe to. I promise I don't do any paid advertising like the other people that say they don't.

A lot of questions in here, but let me know your thoughts! Genuinely curious.

Put in the time. You'll never be happy if you judge your progress by the advice of internet strangers. Fiddle around, buy things off Amazon and compare directly. Compare and contrast. Make up your own mind. There's no "best", just the current "best" for you.

 

[ZalicX]

100% yes. Thankfully, you also can use your ears and move knobs. I submit that it's easier (and cheaper) to find great sounds in modern modeling boxes compared to striking gold with a dwindling supply of questionably-maintained, heavily-marked-up vintage gear.

You use your ears to move knobs? Impressive. I'd agree though, I'm on the digital train completely at this point as It's just impractical for me to lug around a twin reverb. I want to be able to walk upright when I'm old thank you very much.

Also, YouTube documents this fairly well. Have you tried visiting YouTube?

I've been there once or twice, they tend to compare stacking effects stuff rather than sound quality of the amps by themselves across the family. Or Fractal amp sounds against other modelers. G66 got kinda close at explaining this but not really, just more about the DSP.

Experiment with multiple units and find out what works best for you.

Just buy all the units and try them all out! Why didn't I think of that.

If you're asking the internet where you should spend your money, I have a YouTube channel you can like and subscribe to. I promise I don't do any paid advertising like the other people that say they don't.

This reply sponsored by Better Help.

Put in the time. You'll never be happy if you judge your progress by the advice of internet strangers. Fiddle around, buy things off Amazon and compare directly. Compare and contrast. Make up your own mind. There's no "best", just the current "best" for you.

Luckily the internet has given us the ability to communicate with people who aren't in our neighborhood in order to take a large sum of advice and average it out into the most helpful information. Even better, you go to places where it seems like people would have the most experience with what your asking about to see if they may have some valuable input. Sure you find a lot of people who aren't really inputting anything substantial, but hey it makes it worth it to find those people who take the time to give a good answer. It's not letting people tell me what to buy, it's asking a question to get answers and seek advice from people who might have been in my shoes at some point. Like the reply above you for example, that was a very helpful answer.

 

[kywabunga]

You use your ears to move knobs? Impressive. I'd agree though, I'm on the digital train completely at this point as It's just impractical for me to lug around a twin reverb. I want to be able to walk upright when I'm old thank you very much.

Samesies. All I'm saying is that all modelers are different and have different ways of going about capturing/replicating tones.

Most of the "scientific" comparisons I've encountered can be closely matched by moving the knobs (Leo Gibson's YT comes to mind), which on a traditional amp can easily be explained by the part tolerances of tone pots. Assuming, in a perfect world, that everyone got it 100% right, you're back down to the difference between one unit and the next.

So yes, they all sound different. But so do real amps. And it comes down to your ears and the knobs just like it was before.

Apologies for my snark.

I've been there once or twice, they tend to compare stacking effects stuff rather than sound quality of the amps by themselves across the family. Or Fractal amp sounds against other modelers. G66 got kinda close at explaining this but not really, just more about the DSP.

G66 is not unbiased and neither is this forum. In fact, they have significant overlaps, especially on UsToob. In fact, a few of the most-cited and oft-admired forum folks and FAS YouTubers are also G66 Content Employees.

Just buy all the units and try them all out! Why didn't I think of that.

...and do an A/B and then return the gear that doesn't work for you. The world runs on credit. Leverage billing cycles and return policies to your benefit.

This reply sponsored by Better Help.

Let me Ask Jeeves first!

Luckily the internet has given us the ability to communicate with people who aren't in our neighborhood in order to take a large sum of advice and average it out into the most helpful information. Even better, you go to places where it seems like people would have the most experience with what your asking about to see if they may have some valuable input. Sure you find a lot of people who aren't really inputting anything substantial, but hey it makes it worth it to find those people who take the time to give a good answer. It's not letting people tell me what to buy, it's asking a question to get answers and seek advice from people who might have been in my shoes at some point. Like the reply above you for example, that was a very helpful answer.

Consider me a subscriber!

Another apology. By your questions I thought your time might have been better-directed elsewhere, as I learned far later in my quest.

Enjoy your journey!

 

[12fd]

He's asking if factory preset 005 on the FM3 sounds identical to factory preset 005 on the AX3 out of the box.

 

[kywabunga]

They'd be very close to one another, but there are definitely differences between the units due to hardware and, in the FM3's case, CPU limitations.

This thread has a bit on the topic.

 

[Will Chen]

The only differences you would encounter is if a preset used a feature not available in the FM3 like input compression in the amp block, pitch shifted reverb, etc. I doubt the core model for the Twin has been touched in ages.

 

[Frodebro]

The FM9 and Axe-FX have variable input impedance, the FM3 does not. For some people this is important, for some it’s not.

 

[unix-guy]

He's asking if factory preset 005 on the FM3 sounds identical to factory preset 005 on the AX3 out of the box.

No, he is asking specifically about the amp modeling.

The factory presets may not be exactly the same across the different units.

 

[unix-guy]

The FM9 and Axe-FX have variable input impedance, the FM3 does not. For some people this is important, for some it’s not.

That affects a limited number of block types.

The Amp block is not one of those types.

So from the amp modeling perspective, it will not have an effect.

 

[Frodebro]

That affects a limited number of block types.

The Amp block is not one of those types.

So from the amp modeling perspective, it will not have an effect.

It won’t affect the amp modeling, but it does have an effect on the overall sound.

 

[unix-guy]

It won’t affect the amp modeling, but it does have an effect on the overall sound.

Sorry, I was thinking about the way the Auto setting works.

 

[kywabunga]

The only differences you would encounter is if a preset used a feature not available in the FM3 like input compression in the amp block, pitch shifted reverb, etc. I doubt the core model for the Twin has been touched in ages.

Anecdotally, I'm not sure this is entirely the case. Hopefully someone from @FractalAudio can kindly weigh in and set us straight.

 

[unix-guy]

Anecdotally, I'm not sure this is entirely the case. Hopefully someone from @FractalAudio can kindly weigh in and set us straight.

You tagged a specific "someone" not the company

 

[12fd]

No, he is asking specifically about the amp modeling.

Yes, of course, but "Will there be a noticeable difference between the Twin model of the Fm3 vs the Twin model of the AX3?" got misconstrued to be answered as, "The Twin model of the FM3 sounds different than every other brand's digital modeler's Twin so try them all." So I put it in a way that couldn't be construed as anything other than Fractal vs Fractal.

 

[Chromatizm]

Or I could just say eh and get a Tonex. My usage case is very limited (lucky me when you think about it), so a lot of extra features seem unnecessary. Unfortunately, they packed all the good stuff in the bigger box.

I've sold my original FM3 and waiting for FM3T.
In the meantime I've tried many of the available profiling, modelling and AI products like NAM or Genome. They are good in their own way, especially if you don't need much or you are lucky to find amazing amp profile or preset. Currently I'm using Strymon product - even this pedal is much better than 100% of profiles I've tried, and that's a lot.
But nothing touches FM3 as a whole product. Do yourself a favor a go with FM3. Changes you'll look for something else other than more powerful model are close to zero.

"Will there be a noticeable difference between the Twin model of the Fm3 vs the Twin model of the AX3?"

Noticeable - not likely. Some - maybe, until we get a new FW, which will happen occasionally. From that moment you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference.

 

[unix-guy]

Yes, of course, but "Will there be a noticeable difference between the Twin model of the Fm3 vs the Twin model of the AX3?" got misconstrued to be answered as, "The Twin model of the FM3 sounds different than every other brand's digital modeler's Twin so try them all." So I put it in a way that couldn't be construed as anything other than Fractal vs Fractal.

I didn't seem that way to me...

 

[12fd]

I didn't seem that way to me...

Well, perhaps I should have nitpick-proofed my post by adding I was talking specifically about the Twin amp model of each unit, like the OP made clear in his first post, but then it might have gotten long and misconstrued again by the person I was responding to. I will try and do better in the future.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

So for example let's say you load up a Fender Twin reverb on the FM3/Turbo, FM9/Turbo, and Axe III. Provided they're all updated to their current firmware version, would there be any noticeable difference for recording purposes?

IF you start with the FM3 version of the preset, and copy it to the other models unaltered, there should be no difference. If you move it the other direction then you might run into tweaks/adjustments in parameters that exist on the FX3 that are not available on the other units.

The FX3 factory presets don't use any of those unique settings, at least not that I've noticed. And, when we port them to the other units there's no mention of or attention to those sort of things. But still, your best bet is to move from the FM3 upwards. And, in my experience, because I move presets between the three units all the time, I can't tell the difference when using the same preset.