Unforgiving, immediate transient thwack, ultra-tight low-end, MODERN METAL

M

Mobius

New Member
I'm a new A2 user, and I'm having a great time with the unit. But I need some deeper A2 theoretical understanding.

I use a lot of different sounds, and this is the reason the A2 is perfect for me.

But one of the basic sounds I need is an extremely tight, and percussive, Metal tone.

The kind of tone I am talking about is hard to play, as it reveals every pick glitch. It has less actual distortion/saturation than a person might think.

In addition to the tight, fast bottom, the tone I am looking for can reproduce tight intervals and chords with out turning to mud.

I know there are a lot of different Metal amp models: Engel, Diezel, MB-recto, JVM, FAS Modern, etc., and I've had a great time playing with them. Spent 10 hours yesterday building, tearing down, and rebuilding tones in my lockout -at stage volume. Many of the sounds in the A2 recreate what I might call a "well recorded" Metal amp sound. But I have had a bit of a hard time recreating the instantaneous, transient gut-punch, amp "experience".

Right now I am running a Matrix1500 (3rd channel is dormant) into a boogie 4x12 recto cab (v30), and a 4x12 Mini marshal cab (MG412CF 4x12, I think. Ya it's junk, but I'll get something better when I figure out the A2). I also have a couple mesa boogie thiels, but for now I am sticking with a two, 4x12 platform, for stereo.

I've had some luck, so far, blending lower gain AMPS. For ex, I have a pretty tight metal tone made of a JCM 800, and the FAS brown, one amp preceded by a Drive block, the other followed by GEQ block. Also the Engel Energyball has been pretty cool to work with. But I still feel something is lacking in the way of fast tight bottom end. Maybe my ears are just fried.

In axe edit, I have been playing with the "dynamics" page on the Amp Blocks. I've noticed that if I turn the supply sag to zero (kills the Power Amp Sim, right?), that although I loose some cool warmth and power-tube-saturation-tone, the attack and punch increases. It gets more percussive. I've also been turning the B+ all the way up. I've been playing with the dynamic depth and pres, but don't feel like I really understand these controls well.

What other tricks/setting are there for creating ultra-tight, unforgiving, NON-sqwishy, NON-muddy, FAST, hard hitting metal bottom end? I want the those speakers pushing air.

As a reference, I found an interesting article in Premier Guitar that compares a handful of high gain amps with Ola Englund. I liked the Randal Thrasher, and the Engel, as they seemed to have the most clarity and tight percussive lows. Again, I also like to hear all the notes ringing thru the distortion, even when playing complex chords.

Maybe I should look at a different approach to speakers enclosures.

Fellas, HELP! Ideas???
 
Have you tried the bb pre in the drive section going into a 5153 blue ?
Its clean and tight .
Similarly the channel 3 of the vh4
 
Welcome to the forum, I'm sure you'll get the help you need. Great bunch of members with tons of knowledge. Please correct me if I'm wrong but are you trying to go for a "djent" tone?
 
Edrod said:
Welcome to the forum, I'm sure you'll get the help you need. Great bunch of members with tons of knowledge. Please correct me if I'm wrong but are you trying to go for a "djent" tone?
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I think a Djent tone is a good place to start. LOL. I guess I should have just said that. I might end up with something a bit hybridized, but within a good djent tone, many of my goals are met: percussive punch, an enough sonic openness to hear all the notes of, say a minor add9, ringing thru with clarity and integrity. I agree that there are many cool people here on this forum. I have already benefitted from a few of them!! :)

theamidstya said:
Have you tried the bb pre in the drive section going into a 5153 blue ?
Its clean and tight .
Similarly the channel 3 of the vh4
Click to expand...

No. I have not tried these. But I will when I get back to my rehearsal spot. Is this what you use as your Tight Modern Metal sound?

I don't have my manual in front of me.

The BB pre is like an aural exciter, or something?

The 5153 and the VH4 are amps right?

Do you mess with the Dynamics page much? Other settings? If so, what settings make the sound more present, in your face, fast, and percussive?


Thanks for any help!
 
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Yes the 5153 blue is currently my favorite amp for a tight modern sound. Keep the gain at 2-3 and increase the master value to 3.50 - 3.75 this may vary on what pickups you are using.
The bb pre is in the drive section its based on the bb pre amp. works like a tube screamer but retains the warmth without any harshness. if you want it to be harsh and bright go for the t808.
Occasionally i do mess with the dynamics page but nothing drastic. adjust your noisegate add another one if required . you ll be good to go.
 
When I go back to the studio, I'll mess with the 5153, BB, and the Vh4. I've been using the T808, to tighten things up here and there, as the original green box was one of my first pedals when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with that.

I have been enjoying the noisegate that is connected to the input on axe edit. I played a bit with adding a noise gate block, but found that the other did the job just fine. Any reason to add a NG block instead of just using the one at the input?


Really curious to better understand the more advanced controls, like the Dynamics page. I want to understand the theory behind building the tightest, punchiest, most "alive" sound possible, that the axe can produce. Then from there, I will work on building a tone I like...
 
Most of the higher gain amps can get what you're looking for, but the key to what you want is LESS GAIN. You'd be surprised at how little gain a lot of the modern players are using. The TS in front will tighten things up or you can try the cut switch on the first page of the amp block.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
tguitar said:
Most of the higher gain amps can get what you're looking for, but the key to what you want is LESS GAIN. You'd be surprised at how little gain a lot of the modern players are using. The TS in front will tighten things up or you can try the cut switch on the first page of the amp block.
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I agree. I just need enough gain for fast pick harmonics and overtones in general.

I remember when I got my first big boy amp. It was in the late 80s, I was just out of high school, and I had saved and saved, and I bought a Boogie Simulclass mark III. It sounded so great in the bedroom. Tons of gain and the 5 band eq that give me the huge scooped out metal chug that was (at that time) the new emerging metal sound. Then I'd play in bands with guys using JCM 800s w/ a TS in front. The marshalls always sounded underwhelming compared to my boogie in the living room. But once the whole band started playing my "big" scooped tone just disappeared into boom/hiss invisible noise, and the "lackluster" Marshalls became snarling dogs that growled and bite thru the mix. Later, after many JCMs, I bought a 100W '72 super lead, and I just loved the thwack and immediacy of the transient response.I always loved the way the Marshalls could handle dissonant intervals even when saturated in crunchy gain. My old boogie simulclass just became mud. Then I realized that if I drove the boogie's power section really hard, and quit relying on the preamp for all my distortion needs, it too would cut thru the mix.

At any rate, I would not say that I am looking for a Djent tone per-se. I'm not necessarily looking for that high mid spike characteristic of Djent. But I do want the immediacy and percussiveness. In the same way that even when my old boogie was putting out more actual DB than the marshalls, the marshalls still slapped you in the face harder than the boogie. Does that make sense? I just feel I can make the A2 punch a little harder. But not sure how... yet.

Thanks for the help.
 
Mobius said:
When I go back to the studio, I'll mess with the 5153, BB, and the Vh4. I've been using the T808, to tighten things up here and there, as the original green box was one of my first pedals when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with that.

I have been enjoying the noisegate that is connected to the input on axe edit. I played a bit with adding a noise gate block, but found that the other did the job just fine. Any reason to add a NG block instead of just using the one at the input?


Really curious to better understand the more advanced controls, like the Dynamics page. I want to understand the theory behind building the tightest, punchiest, most "alive" sound possible, that the axe can produce. Then from there, I will work on building a tone I like...
Click to expand...

I have never used an Axe but i read in another thread that the Axe has a 'low cut', and how important it is to adjust it to remove 'flub' from the low, and tighten it up - have you tried this yet?
 
low cut for sure. add an eq before the amp block and add high-mids around 3k or so, maybe dump some more low end. this will really change the way the amp feels. you can always add bass after the amp to make up for the low cut.

in my opinion, the biggest difference i feel when comparing a Marshall to Mesa is that Marshall dumps off more lows and adds highs before the amp. adding a tube screamer before a Mesa has been the way to bring it into Marshall territory for some time now.

experiment with an eq before the amp....or different pickups.
 
The other thing you can try is putting a noise gate after the amp block, but this will only really work if you run your effects like delay and reverb either after the amp block or in parallel (which I do partially for this exact reason). Use the initial gate where it is, but add another noise gate last in your chain. Then set the noise gates input to pick up your signal AT THE INPUT of the chain. Its essentially telling the gate to use your input signal as the "key", but it applies the effect to where ever you actually place the gate block in your chain. This will allow you to get super tight gating without weakening your tone.

Other things that I generally tweak for this type of sound are increasing the "definition" parameter in the amp block and the "pick attack" parameter. I sold my mesa boogie cab years ago, but I remember the oversized 4x12s being BEASTLY. With the 150 watt triple rec head it felt like getting kicked in the chest on palm mutes :)
 
Thanks guys. Im gonna try all of those ideas.

Toolfanem, I'll play with using a gate block instead of, or in addition to the input gate. I really appreciate you the taking the time to give me some ideas.

Singtail, I'll try putting an eq block before the amp. I have a JB in one guitar, and emgs in another. The third I'm using in this project is the PRS Mushok baritone.

iaresee, I downloaded the The Stef Carpenter package, but it says "compatible with firmware 10". I think I'm on FW12. Can I still use Stef's sounds?

Another thing a friend hipped me to, is that when you are cycling thru various amps in axe edit, the settings and parameters don't revert to factory preset on each new amp. So if I have some settings for one amp, the next amp I select may be horribly tweaked from the previous amp's setting.

What do I do on a Mac to make each new amp I am auditioning "zero" back to the Fractal preset settings?

Axe fx is a spaceship. I'm sure it will become intuitive at some point. I love how powerful it is. Can't wait to fall in love with the way it sounds. Just gotta learn it first.
 
Mobius said:
iaresee, I downloaded the The Stef Carpenter package, but it says "compatible with firmware 10". I think I'm on FW12. Can I still use Stef's sounds?
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They should work with 12.xx. If you run in to any trouble with them let me know. I'll see if I can set some time aside later today to check them in 12.xx. Need sleep first. :)


What do I do on a Mac to make each new amp I am auditioning "zero" back to the Fractal preset settings?
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Select the amp block in the grid and then from the top menu bar select Block -> Reset. It'll put it back to default settings.
 
What worked pretty well for me when trying to achieve a tight and percussive low end was and agressive tone :
  1. Use a high gain model with guts, and that have both input gain and overdrive controls
  2. keep bass in the preamp (basic page) rather low
  3. Input gain quite high, around 7
  4. Overdrive up to taste, but no so much, just to add some sparkle
  5. Cut mids a bit
  6. Set GEQ in amp block to pre-power amp mode and add low end (the low end that is lacking from the preamp), scoop lower mids a bit, boost high mids a bit.
I get a good low end boom with low notes and palm mutes, while having growling mids and highs not too crisps. Low distortion / gain in the amp helps keeping things clear and not muddy, that's very important. Here experiment between input gain value and overdrive value to find what does what and which one you prefer higher than the other.
Last thing I discovered what the multi-band comp does to the sound when just behind the cab. Give it a try! Even the default settings are really great. You can crank some low end that will bite on open chords and solo notes while the comp will keep bass under control for the chuga chuga palm mutes. Very effective.
 
Armageddon said:
What worked pretty well for me when trying to achieve a tight and percussive low end was and agressive tone :
[-snip-]
Last thing I discovered what the multi-band comp does to the sound when just behind the cab. Give it a try! Even the default settings are really great. You can crank some low end that will bite on open chords and solo notes while the comp will keep bass under control for the chuga chuga palm mutes. Very effective.
Click to expand...

+1 for use of MBC.
 
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