Honeymoon is over: band feedback

ethrbunny

ethrbunny

Inspired
So it finally came out tonight: band does not like the AFXII.

Bass player: "<the drummer> and I have been talking - this new setup sounds tinny and artificial. The sound is totally lost in most of our songs."

I like honest and straightforward but this really bummed me out. Im *not* going back to my squeally, radio-station-picking-up, temperamental Carvin amp. Having said that I don't really know how to fix this. I tried a number of the 'stock patches' for some songs in addition to the dozen or so I've put together on my own. They sound great to me when Im alone but its true that they are totally eclipsed when the rhythm section is there. Its not a volume thing - its just a hole in the mix. And this wasn't an issue with my previous amp (which is still sitting, ominously, in the room... lurking.. wanting to come back and make me unhappy).

I've tried playing through the PA and through an Avatar 2x12 cabinet. I was at the music store today looking at QSC monitors. What I don't want to do is throw more money at this if the process of making viable patches is beyond me. This worries me more than a little. Given all the various settings that go into building a patch - knowing which ones are 'amiss' - this is elusive.

And the 'tinny and artificial' comment. Ouch. Yes, its a digital modeler, but I think Im not using it properly.

Just my thoughts. I intend to fix this. I just don't know how. I believe in this amp.
 
Tweak during practice. This is an age old thing. You playing in a room may sound great, but if it doesn't work in the mix with the band (as you've found) it's worthless. Suggestions: boost midrange, crank master, lower gain. Make it spikey and see how it fits in the mix.

Have you mirrored your Carvin to the Axe? DUPLICATE the sound perfectly. See the parameters that work with the band.

FWIW, I had problems to start out with. What patches I made that sounded awesome by myself were dark and lost in the mix. When I started hitting more presence, midrange, and made it less smooth worked in our band.

Good luck.

Ron
 
When you design patches are you doing it by youself or with the band. A tone that usually sounds great solo sounds lost in a band mix
 
I see the problem too: "<the drummer> and I have been talking and think you should only use a real amp."

again though - the comments given are pretty much spot on.
 
There's only one way to tune an amp of any sort - at volume!

If the rest of the band aren't willing to get together and give you a chance to tune it as a group you could maybe just play a recording through the PA on your own and play along with it at a decent volume.

Once you get it near then it's only a quick and easy tweak in the Global EQ to be capable of getting you right for the room when rehearsing/gigging.

Even if you get just the 3 or 4 basic amp sounds using clean, crunchy clean, crunch and lead set nicely just using a simple amp block and your amp/speaker cab in your preset chain at stage volume you can store these for reference and use them to compare the bass, mid and treble/presence when making patches at low volume at home. OK - your patches might sound a bit too dull to you - but when you get to stage volume they should be close enough to be able to fix quickly.

On my JMP-1 I used to have a few presets that I used at home set up for headphones or small monitors because the ones tuned for the power amp and speakers were too dull sounding.

There's a bit of a learning curve when moving from a traditional amp setup to a preamp/processor setup - but concentrate on getting used to editing the presets' basic drive, level and tone settings via the front panel and you soon can get the sounds right without holding people up during rehearsals.
 
I suspect you need to EQ very differently. The advice above about comparing with your old amp at high volume is good, although I wouldn't worrry too much about trying to get it exact - the Axe-Fx can get you to a similar tone, then you can modify it further to get it better for you than your old amp.

Back in the day when I had an Axe-Fx, I used massive amounts of mid-boost for live loud settings to compensate for generally thin sounding IRs *IMHO*. So don't worry about how radical the settings might look, it the final sound that matters.
 
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I'm always amazed at how well a mid-rangy Plexi tone sits in a mix. If you sound thin in the mix try adding mid-range (like electronpirate already said). The trick is finding the right midrange frequency that helps support the tone, but doesn't sound a.m. radio like. Where I tend to mess up is having the treble control set too high in order to cut through. It sounds fine in my monitor, but when you listen back to the whole mix it can sound thin and buzzy. So I've learned to lower it a hair less than what my ear would prefer on stage. I've also learned by listening to how others (like Scott) approach tones. Maybe someone from the forum with a good ear lives near you?

Bottom line in my advice - don't give up. Listen to the whole mix yourself, maybe recorded so you can be critical without half your brainpower playing guitar (or 99/100 if you're like me). Then tweak. If you find yourself radically changing the tone post cabinet, try a different speaker IR that is closer to what you need in the first place.

If you can post a short clip of your band live it would be helpful too.
 
I've been wondering about Global EQing. There are so many variables to keep in mind with this setup its quite mind boggling. If the global EQ can be the panacea I need that would be a life saver. Tweaking bits during a rehearsal would be fine if I actually knew which ones to try. Boosting the mids a tad in global sounds easy enough even for me.

Have you mirrored your Carvin to the Axe? DUPLICATE the sound perfectly.
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Haven't tried that. Was so *v* fed up with it. I'll get one of my kids to stand in front of the AFX to randomly change knobs and unplug me occasionally. That should help to duplicate the sound. Seriously though - when the bass player said she missed the Carvin I rolled my eyes back so far they nearly detached themselves.

If you can post a short clip of your band live it would be helpful too.
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I'll spare you the sordid details. We play music about like I play golf - the fewer witnesses the better. ( Comment heard from onlooker: "Did that guy just throw his guitar in the lake?" )

I think I will try the EV 112p speakers. Reactor 50/50 for sale!
 
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Try this as your last block (regardless of your output device) to use as a 'check' on something before you buy anything else; before you sell anything.

Drop a PEQ block as your LAST block. After reverb, after delay, after everything else. Set band 1 and band 5 to "blocking". Turn Band 1 to 100Hz and Band 5 to 6500kHz. Try that with your band. This works because it will allow you to turn up without getting muddy or shrilly. Don't get cerebral about the settings or feeling like you are 'missing' anything frequency-wise. Try it and then adjust your EQ in the amp block on the fly.

Post your findings after that (just one more try, tell your bassist and drummer to listen before they talk to each other again... lol).
 
ethrbunny said:
So it finally came out tonight: band does not like the AFXII.

Bass player: "<the drummer> and I have been talking - this new setup sounds tinny and artificial. The sound is totally lost in most of our songs."

I like honest and straightforward but this really bummed me out. Im *not* going back to my squeally, radio-station-picking-up, temperamental Carvin amp. Having said that I don't really know how to fix this. I tried a number of the 'stock patches' for some songs in addition to the dozen or so I've put together on my own. They sound great to me when Im alone but its true that they are totally eclipsed when the rhythm section is there. Its not a volume thing - its just a hole in the mix. And this wasn't an issue with my previous amp (which is still sitting, ominously, in the room... lurking.. wanting to come back and make me unhappy).

I've tried playing through the PA and through an Avatar 2x12 cabinet. I was at the music store today looking at QSC monitors. What I don't want to do is throw more money at this if the process of making viable patches is beyond me. This worries me more than a little. Given all the various settings that go into building a patch - knowing which ones are 'amiss' - this is elusive.

And the 'tinny and artificial' comment. Ouch. Yes, its a digital modeler, but I think Im not using it properly.

Just my thoughts. I intend to fix this. I just don't know how. I believe in this amp.
Click to expand...

What has worked for me, (in most cases is to drop some of your bottom end and lower mids. I know us guitar players for the most part love to have things sounding "THICK" as possible but remember, we have a bass player and a kick drum that run around in those frequencies and generally have dominion there. Mid range is the key but doesn't necessarily mean you have to turn the mids up. Hampering frequencies could still be there regardless of what may cranked in the EQ.

While adjusting upper mids, (1-2k range) may be needed, finding what is hampering is just as important if not more. That way you can basically maintain already what you have. Also off-setting your panning slightly through your PA may also help. Also if you are using: Axe II = Power Amp = 2x12 turn off your power amp in amp sim (sag) and turn off cab block if you already haven't. As previously stated... do the tweeking with your band.

EQ-ing and effects are like what make-up should be to a woman... to accentuate. Not to overhaul.

Hope you can work it out because I know pure and simply... it can be. These units excel.

Peace,
 
You actually TALKED to your bass player and drummer & asked their opinion???? :shock



:lol

Start tweaking bro, do it till your satisfied. You got the right tools. (See Scotts post above - excellent advice)
 
Time for a new bass player and drummer if you ask me...what do they know about tone !!!

Four skin bashers and boom boom merchants..

I'd punch my drummer up the bracket if he talked about my tone....

only jokin people...
 
Next thing you know you're gonna be asking the singer for advise... ;) :D

I would just wait for 2.00 since Cliff mentioned the high gain amps are getting an "overhaul"...
 
I wasn't sure from the OP, you went from a 4x12 to using mostly wedges?

If you go the monitor route, I would recommend a dedicated monitor just for the Axe feed. Going from a 4x12 backline amp to hearing yourself (or not) only in a wedge with other instruments in the mix too, is a cold shock.

A separate monitor chain dedicated to the Axe works better for me.

Richard
 
What Scott said - excellent specific advice.

The first time I tried Ultra > FRFR with the band I had a sort of similar experience.. what I had thought was awesome on my own sounded thin, wimpy and weird in a band context. This is all in EQ. There are SO many ways to go wrong with all the signal chain and parameters available. I find it helps immensely to A/B directly against your old rig for your first patch. Basically try to clone your old amp as it sounds in the room for a starting point baseline. You need to do this loud, and directly A/B switching between the two rigs. Don't try to do it from memory. Once you have a satisfying sound, you can build off that using different amp types, gain levels, etc to create the various other sounds you'll need, but always refer back to your baseline to make sure you are in the same ballpark for level and EQ.
 
ethrbunny said:
I was at the music store today looking at QSC monitors. What I don't want to do is throw more money at this if the process of making viable patches is beyond me.
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Whoa... Deja Vu. Back when I started with Ultra (08) I was fixated on FRFR (largely from forum influence I admit). I went and bought a QSC HPR112to see if it would make me happier (even though I had some very capable EVs at my disposal). In the end I wound up going with an SS poweramp into my old, trusty, familiar guitar cabs. That was the 'best tone ever and everyone in the band agrees' breakthrough for me. It's certainly not that you can't get great FRFR results, but it is SO much simpler and easier dialing in tones when you eliminate the millions of cab sim possibilities from the equasion. And regardless of how good, FR will always sound different than a cab.. because an IR is not a cab, it's a mic-ed cab. Different. IMO.
 
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