Helix Stadium vs Fractal FM9: whch is the king of amp modelers (vs real tube amp)?

Stephen Colbert Popcorn GIF
 
Hold the phone!! At 5:20 he gives a thumbs up to HXS for presets / scenes?? Does HXS have the capability to switch amp models between snapshots without multiple amp blocks? If not (afaik it doesn't but I could be wrong), this is a big oversight in the comparison chart since it is THEE reason Axfx Scenes totally blow away HX snapshots and HXS snapshots as well if it still requires multiple amp blocks to replicate Axfx amp switching.
 
It's not as flexible as Fractals Channels method ,
But inside 1 Stadium amp block , for ex.
Slo100 , can toggle channels , clean, crunch , lead , by snapshots. Like the real amp,
But no cannot toggle from a SLO to a Fender , with 1 Block alone
 
I guess that I still have fun "window shopping" other gear. But in the end, IMHO, what's "best" is subjective. Fractal sounds awesome to me and has far more features than I ever realistically use. So I'm happy and content with what I have.

Use what works for you (Line 6, Fractal Audio or ?) and enjoy life. At least that's how I think about it.
 
I'm sure "best" is not subjective to industry contenders. They'll measure very precisely with exact goals of "best" in mind.
 
This will make more sense to me to compare them in year oh so when the Staduim has had time to be built out a bit, and Fractal releases thir next Gen. Until then I am on the sidelines.
 
I posted something similar on another forum in a similar thread and thought it’d be appropriate:

These endless videos and forum threads are the definition of insanity. We’ve known for well over a decade that modeling quality has essentially plateaued at an extremely high level.

Here’s a hard truth: if you can’t get a genuinely studio-quality tone out of any top-tier modeler released in the last 10+ years, the problem is almost certainly you—not the unit.

And let’s be real—unless you’ve sat down in a controlled environment and done a proper blind A/B comparison between these units and the exact reference amps that the companies disassembled, measured, analyzed, and used to create their models, nobody actually knows which modeler is more “accurate.” At that point, most of the “X sounds more real than Y” debate is just expensive placebo.

The real differentiator these days isn’t raw tone quality or mythical accuracy; it’s how quickly and intuitively you can dial in the sound in your head. In that department, Line 6’s UI is the undisputed gold standard and absolutely runs circles around Fractal’s and this is coming from a Fractal “cultist” or “fanboy,” as many like to call their users.

That said, I own and regularly use both Helix (Helix Native and HX Stomp) and Fractal units. When it comes to the very best tone I’m capable of achieving, I actually prefer Fractal—and I’m more than happy to spend the extra time tweaking it because the results are noticeably better than anything I can get out of the Helix. Anyone who actually knows how to read a manual can dial in killer tones on a Fractal without breaking a sweat; the learning curve only feels steep to people who refuse to open the PDF.

In short: Line 6 wins on speed and ease of use. Fractal wins on ultimate tone and depth. Both are phenomenal—it just depends on whether you value convenience or the absolute best possible sound.

Just my $0.02.
 
Which is all the more reason the newer units need to be more powerful and fast, easier to use and work with if any company wants to get customers to switch from their preferred brand. This means touchscreens, easier workflow, onboard UI, Bluetooth, App etc. May not be important to some but there are people who want them. My old Helix served me well for 8 years live and sounded good to me, but the DSP was becoming an issue as I couldn't build the chains I wanted to without making sacrifices. So I switched to the Fractal. Love the sound, but the UI is not easy to work with if you have to tweak at a rehearsal and dont have a laptop or FractPad. Now the same thing is happening to Fractal, where DSP is becoming a limitation as each new firmawre requires more DSP than the prior to do the same thing. Stadium is appealing for the UI and power, but not much new with amps and effects yet, so not willing to switch until I see what Fractal comes up with next. These companies are in it to make money, and they do that by innovatiing and coming up with new products that their customers feel they need. Line 6 has done that with their huge existing user base, which is why they are backordered. Nothing wrong with their business model even if you feel their amps dont sound as good as FA. That is just a small part of the equation.
 
ruso said:
We’ve known for well over a decade that modeling quality has essentially plateaued at an extremely high level.
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Instead of my usual repetitive answer to this, I'll ask you: If modelling plateaued 10y ago, why have we heard so many material audible differences with FW updates that included modelling engine changes? What am I missing? (I have Ax2+3 - if I A/B compare an Ax2 model to Ax3, the difference is big - but I do agree that single tone A/B testing across units is kindv absurd as it misses much of the point of modelling improvements imo (feel, interactivity with surrounding FX, amp-cabIR interaction, behaviour across various settings / volume levels).
 
sprint said:
Instead of my usual repetitive answer to this, I'll ask you: If modelling plateaued 10y ago, why have we heard so many material audible differences with FW updates that included modelling engine changes? What am I missing? (I have Ax2+3 - if I A/B compare an Ax2 model to Ax3, the difference is big - but I do agree that single tone A/B testing across units is kindv absurd as it misses much of the point of modelling improvements imo (feel, interactivity with surrounding FX, amp-cabIR interaction, behaviour across various settings / volume levels).
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I remember listening to A/B comparison clips that Cliff posted many years ago and thinking, "yeah, those sound identical." I've also read countless posts from him saying that the differences between the physical amps and models were indistinguishable. But yet, here we are with countless updates to the preamp and power amp modeling ever since. Perhaps the improvements are so granular that the average person like myself can't tell? With every update, yes, I can tell there's a difference from the previous firmware, but without comparing to the actual amp that was used for the modeling, I'll never know the difference between them. And that's ok. All I know is that I like the way it feels when I play. And if that's a result of the constant improvements to the modeling algorithms, then by all means, keep them coming.

When I use the term "plateau," I guess the point I'm trying to make is that 10 years ago, Fractal's modeling was pretty damn good. Hell, many people, including myself, still reference this video from 2017 that actually still holds up today.

 
guitarplayer1969 said:
But every firmware update we all say the Amp modeling sounds better than the previous.....
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And for many, including myself, it does if we’re comparing firmware to firmware.

How many of us are comparing the firmware to the actual amp what was used to create the model? Cliff and maybe a handful of other people?

The only real amps in the Axe-FX that I am intimately familiar with are amps that I actually owned, specifically the Mesa Boogie Mark IV and Marshall JCM800. But I can only compare the firmware to AN amp that I’m familiar with, not THE amp that that was modeled.

I can say with great certainty that the Mesa Boogie Mark IV and Marshall JCM800 models are very accurate due to the fact that I’m intimately familiar with these amps, having played and gigged with them for years. Others, I’ve only played through a handful of times. Most, I’ve only heard on recordings.

For me, I’d say for 95% of the other amp models, I can only rely on faith that they are accurate to the real amp.
 
ruso said:
And for many, including myself, it does if we’re comparing firmware to firmware.

How many of us are comparing the firmware to the actual amp what was used to create the model? Cliff and maybe a handful of other people?
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Imo this misses the point / value of the modelling updates. Those incremental accuracy improvements we hear from fw to fw, (or in total) have contributed to many overall, not necessarily connected to any given model, benefits in terms of:
  • How the amp models feel to play in general.
  • How the amp models interact with drives and boosts in general.
  • How the amp models interact with surrounding fx blox in general.
  • The amp-cabIR interaction.
  • How the amp models respond to settings changes and to being used at varying volumes.
Improvements continue to come in, and are material outside the context of A/B comparing to the physical amp which a user won't likely own. The modelling accuracy improvements are what has moved the whole package forward imo, and the reason why you can get a noticeably better tone out of it. Not having the physical amp to A/B compare, or bothering to care about that at all doesn't mean the ongoing series of accuracy improvements is not enhancing the product for your usage. We hear often: "idc about accuracy - if it sounds good, its good", well, the reason it sounds good is because of the ongoing accuracy improvement. And when there's audible improvement, even the "it's already plenty good enough for me" folks can't resist getting stoked.

Will the touch screen brigade throw a wrench into that cycle? - will be interesting to see. Has L6 caught up on modelling? - If yes, that's a game changer for Fractal and fanbase.
 
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sprint said:
  • How the amp models feel to play in general.
  • How the amp models interact with drives and boosts in general.
  • How the amp models interact with surrounding fx blox in general.
  • The amp-cabIR interaction.
  • How the amp models respond to settings changes and to being used at varying volumes.
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These IMO, are where most of the improvements have been made over the past few years, the way the amp models interact with drives and boosts being one of the most biggest standouts for me.

The Cab and IR interaction? If I’m not mistaken, nobody else was doing speaker impedance curves before Cliff. The Tone Master Pro debacle comes to mind. And isn’t Line 6 just beginning to utilize them with the newest hardware?

I guess “plataued” wasn’t the right word. Maybe “tapered,” or “matured?” Exponential growth in regards to what’s only audible has been there for a long time IMO. Now the feel? I think we’re in the midst of that revolution at this very moment.
 
sprint said:
Yup - HX Fx are much much more "divided out" than in Axfx, which makes snapshots much less effective than Axfx scenes. Pretty glaring omission from a vid of this level of detail.
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People that have never really tried FAS stuff, and only have Helix swears that the Helix is the most flexible unit out there. I have both, and I have to say lacking in channels per block is very much a GLARING OMISSION in the Helix. Its hard to get people to see that until they use it.

I only got the Helix LT to use 4 cable with a 5150iii, and just for FX it was great. At the time I had an AF2 and, I can't remember why, but the AX8 didnt appeal to me so between that and my decade and a half (at the time) experience with L6 leaned me in that direction. After a while, I wanted to go back to using just a modleler for tones rather than FX and a Tube amp, by that time I got used to the convience of a floor unit rather than a separate rack unit and foot controller, plus at the time I was in a playing situation where I needed to be able to get my gear off stage in about 2-3 minutes or less. I tried the Helix for that but the amp modeling (even in its lastest FW now) just could not compete with the Axe FX II. When the FM9 dropped I got it, too quickly though because the Turbo came out not long after I purchased my unit. I do not care how much L6 says they've improved their modeling, my (now) 2 decades of experience with their gear tells me that while it very well may sound good, it will not comepete directly with FAS' modeling and flexibility.
 
It's definitely a great time to be a guitar player, so many good options at any price point. I've heard and played some really good tones using the Helix and could see myself looking into the Stadium had I bought a Helix instead of the AX8. Since purchasing and using the Axe III exclusively for the past 5+ years, every time I play through a Helix I miss the tones and connection to the instrument that I hear and feel with the Axe.

I don't have an interest in trying the Stadium, the responses seem to be along the lines of 'narrowing the gap between Line 6 and Fractal'. Even if it sounds and feels close to the same, I'm still not interested. Fractal's attention to customers and user base, plus the quality of Fractal's effects and never ending passion for improving has made me a 'Fanboi'.
 
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