Friedman amps in AXEFX3 vs Helix

jayjay347912

jayjay347912

Inspired
Hey guys, semi-new AFX3 mk2 owner for a couple of months. I also own a Helix Lt. Since I'm an audiophile, I love tweaking and turning knobs, and learning with my ears along the way. I've been on a Jerry Cantrell tone chase this past few weeks, and finally auditioned some of the Friedman models in the Axe FX 3. My only prior knowledge comes from the "Placater" model in my Helix. Not nearly as much options, but it dawned on me..why does Helix have the "fat", "C45","HBE", and "saturation" switches modeled in the amp block, but in AXEFX3, Cliff seems to need a selection of different versions of the amp with those switches on/off? Wasn't really impressed with the Friedmans so far. And I KNOW it's HIGHLY likely that's on me. AxeFX 3 has been many times better than my Helix right out of the box, sans two amps I like better on the Helix. Those amps are the Dual Rectifier, and the Friedman. I ALMOST sold my Helix, but those 2 amps, and the fact I spent HOURS of work/time creating and tweaking a few dozen presets to actually sound good, I'm not gonna just sell that hard work away. The AFX3 has been literally the opposite ( with the exception of this special case) Any bigger nerds than me that can tell me what I don't know? Cantrell fans with any suggestions on amps to blend would help as well. ( Bogner Shiva with a Friedman? I love amp blending) Thanks in advance guys.
 
jayjay347912 said:
Not nearly as much options, but it dawned on me..why does Helix have the "fat", "C45","HBE", and "saturation" switches modeled in the amp block, but in AXEFX3, Cliff seems to need a selection of different versions of the amp with those switches on/off?
Click to expand...
That's just the way the Fractal modeling paradigm works.
 
Tone match your L6 patches with the closest FAS model. If that fixes it, then I would say it's eq.

If you are after a stiffer feel like the L6 seems to me, try lowering SAG in the amp block. There are other parameters that tighten up or loosen the feel also. Ok... That statement may encourage a few creative responses. :p
 
Joshua_L said:
Are you sure it comes from the amp modeling and not the irs?
Click to expand...
That was the first question I asked in my head. You can easily mess up and use that 1x4 pig that's default in the cab section. That wasn't the case for me though.. Tried a few of my favorite V30 marshall cabs, as well as a few Friedmans. It helped. I'm sure with a bit more geeking out I will get it up to snuff. Thanks for the responses guys.
 
Yeah..seems that way
NeoSound said:
Tone match your L6 patches with the closest FAS model. If that fixes it, then I would say it's eq.

If you are after a stiffer feel like the L6 seems to me, try lowering SAG in the amp block. There are other parameters that tighten up or loosen the feel also. Ok... That statement may encourage a few creative responses. :p
Click to expand...
That
NeoSound said:
Tone match your L6 patches with the closest FAS model. If that fixes it, then I would say it's eq.

If you are after a stiffer feel like the L6 seems to me, try lowering SAG in the amp block. There are other parameters that tighten up or loosen the feel also. Ok... That statement may encourage a few creative responses. :p
Click to expand...
That seems to be the way I'm gonna go. 🙏 Thank you sir
 
I know the Helix is good, but the Recto better on the Helix than Fractal? I dunno, but I made a nice Recto tone fairly easy on my Axe III.
Throw a TS808 in front of it. Gain 0, level 10 to tame the lows. Pair it with a V30 cab… dial BMT as desired. I use a York Audio Mesa oversized cab. Righteous metal tone.
 
Gotta level with you, mate. The Friedmans were my lifeblood for years in the Fractal world but after Cygnus, something just changed and I haven’t been able to get the same tones on them as before. There’s a wool-y thickness that just doesn’t go away. There are deeper parameters you can change to make that go away, but doing that also takes away the thump that would otherwise be there. It’s kinda hard to explain but I created a thread about a test I did comparing the Friedman tones pre- and post-Cygnus. I have moved on to different amp models now but I do miss that pre-Cygnus chunky goodness of the HBE C45.

P.S.- I know I am wrong AF but it feels like the Cygnus modelling has like a Fat switch or something turned on across all models that makes the low mids and higher lows (100-200-ish?) all fuzzy and muddy. The chugs just don’t have the same clarity and attack as before.

EDIT: corrected the link to the thread with the shootout
 
Last edited:
Saarang Narayan said:
Gotta level with you, mate. The Friedmans were my lifeblood for years in the Fractal world but after Cygnus, something just changed and I haven’t been able to get the same tones on them as before. There’s a wool-y thickness that just doesn’t go away. There are deeper parameters you can change to make that go away, but doing that also takes away the thump that would otherwise be there. It’s kinda hard to explain but I created a thread about a test I did comparing the Friedman tones pre- and post-Cygnus. I have moved on to different amp models now but I do miss that pre-Cygnus chunky goodness of the HBE C45.

P.S.- I know I am wrong AF but it feels like the Cygnus modelling has like a Fat switch or something turned on across all models that makes the low mids and higher lows (100-200-ish?) all fuzzy and muddy. The chugs just don’t have the same clarity and attack as before.
Click to expand...
Your link isn't working for me...

Weren't the Friedman amps "re-based" around that time?
 
This may not be relevant at all, but for me Friedmans sound best with the master volume pretty high, usually at 6 or higher. I’ve never really paid attention to Cantrell, so this may not help with what you’re going for, but I know I stayed away from Friedmans until I happened to experiment with a high master volume, then I instantly loved them!

It had always bothered me that the models just seemed ridiculously dark, to the point where Cliff recommends modding them to get the bass under control, and I thought Dave Friedman can’t have intended for his amps to be that way and still have people who think his amps are the ultimate, so it occurred to me that maybe they’re something like the opposite of a Plexi: with a Plexi it’s really bright until you crank the master and lose your hearing, and maybe with Friedmans they’re dark until you crank the master and lose your hearing.

I’ve never played a real Friedman, so take what I’m writing with a grain of salt, but the high master volume opened world for new personally with those models.

Good luck in your tone quest regardless of how you get there.
 
Yes the Friedman BE is a darker hotrodded Plexi sound but you can always crank the presence and highs if you want. There is more low mids and bass in there than a Plexi. The controls are subtractive vs. the additive nature of typical controls so don't be afraid to experiment with higher settings. I had a few BE's but ending up selling them because they were not gritty enough. It's like my SLO. Great, smooth tone for leads but for rhythm guitar it lacks the aggression and bite to sound good in a mix.
 
jayjay347912 said:
why does Helix have the "fat", "C45","HBE", and "saturation" switches modeled in the amp block, but in AXEFX3, Cliff seems to need a selection of different versions of the amp with those switches on/off?
Click to expand...
It's a deficiency of the current way the Fractal system works. By deficiency, I don't mean that there is some sound issue, just that the way the system is setup necessitates those separate models. Cliff seems to consider those settings change enough things to warrant modeling them separately, whereas simpler things like say bright switches are just toggles on the user interface.

Line6's system might simply be more flexible for custom controls which can change all the necessary things behind the scenes to make the model sound like the C45 switch enabled. Or they might be less accurate and not able to model the full effect of that switch, without comparing to the reference amp we just don't know.

There's also nothing wrong with preferring whatever model on Helix. You just happen to like their version of that particular model and the Fractal equivalent might just as well be accurate to Fractal's reference amps vs Helix models being accurate to Line6's stash of reference amps.

The Placater Dirty is my favorite modded Marshall model on Line6, but I basically never use the Friedman models on the Fractal nor do I like the Friedman BE that much in real life either. To me the Fractal models sound like what I remember the real deal sounding, but I haven't put them head to head, just tried a BE a few times in a store.

On the Fractal my go-to modded Marshall type amp is the Cornford MK50 model. So give that a spin.

If you want to compare to your Helix, use the same 3rd party IRs on both systems so you aren't comparing both amp and cab sims. Then use a decibel meter to make sure the output volumes are the same so you are not just hearing louder = better.
 
State of Epicicity said:
This may not be relevant at all, but for me Friedmans sound best with the master volume pretty high, usually at 6 or higher. I’ve never really paid attention to Cantrell, so this may not help with what you’re going for, but I know I stayed away from Friedmans until I happened to experiment with a high master volume, then I instantly loved them!
Click to expand...
I remember there being a thread about this, too. Unfortunately the high master volume trick doesn't really work for heavier tones. For the chunky modern metal tones, turning up the master volume further mushes things up. The clarity and attack of the older firmwares (which required NO modding of advanced parameters) is simply not there now...
 
FusionFanatic said:
I know the Helix is good, but the Recto better on the Helix than Fractal? I dunno, but I made a nice Recto tone fairly easy on my Axe III.
Throw a TS808 in front of it. Gain 0, level 10 to tame the lows. Pair it with a V30 cab… dial BMT as desired. I use a York Audio Mesa oversized cab. Righteous metal tone.
Click to expand...
Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong, the AFX3 rectos are great. Really great. They actually have a few more revisions and options than the Helix. It very well could be me. I do know that in the Helix I boost the recto with a Chandler tube driver. Never got so close to a Metallica "load" tone in my life. I'm sure once I dig and futz around the axe FX 3 versions will be on par or better.
 
Saarang Narayan said:
Gotta level with you, mate. The Friedmans were my lifeblood for years in the Fractal world but after Cygnus, something just changed and I haven’t been able to get the same tones on them as before. There’s a wool-y thickness that just doesn’t go away. There are deeper parameters you can change to make that go away, but doing that also takes away the thump that would otherwise be there. It’s kinda hard to explain but I created a thread about a test I did comparing the Friedman tones pre- and post-Cygnus. I have moved on to different amp models now but I do miss that pre-Cygnus chunky goodness of the HBE C45.

P.S.- I know I am wrong AF but it feels like the Cygnus modelling has like a Fat switch or something turned on across all models that makes the low mids and higher lows (100-200-ish?) all fuzzy and muddy. The chugs just don’t have the same clarity and attack as before.

EDIT: corrected the link to the thread with the shootout
Click to expand...
This.
 
FusionFanatic said:
I know the Helix is good, but the Recto better on the Helix than Fractal? I dunno, but I made a nice Recto tone fairly easy on my Axe III.
Throw a TS808 in front of it. Gain 0, level 10 to tame the lows. Pair it with a V30 cab… dial BMT as desired. I use a York Audio Mesa oversized cab. Righteous metal tone.
Click to expand...
Oh and +100 to those oversized recto cabs. They are my go to. The YA VHT Fat bottom eminence crushes with it also.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom