The Elusive "Tube-ry Feel" of Axe-Fx III

M

Mark Al

Inspired
Hi everyone, I am a long time Helix user, I got used to it, and got quite good at dialing tones with it. Throughout the years, I have been through many different FRFRs, dxr, EVs, Headrush etc, to finally give up on the FRFR route completely, later I feel better with Powercab 112+ speaker mode with Helix cab block off, and then later again, I feel quite happy with Powercab 212, which is a fantastic option for Helix or perhaps other modelers as well.

Throughout the years, I dabbed into AXE8, FXII and Kemper a bit, IME, I don't feel much superiority from them when compared to Helix, in term of guitar tonal characteristics or feel. They all can be dialed to sound and feel quite close to each other, in my experience anyway.... Furthermore, I spent quite a bit of time A/B various of SS setups (including modelers) with my tube combos. There is a definitive difference between SS and tube amps in the feel but not necessarily in the tone, e.g. when recorded, it's much less tangible, but when played in real-time, my finger and brain perceive that difference in spades.

Feel is a bit tricky to articulate but to me it seems to be related how the tube power section responds to dynamic, that somehow it does so non-linearly and in a way that allows us to explore the picking dynamic more organically, easily or musically. On the other hand, the SS power section often feels like they jump from quiet to loud more readily and immediately, and leaving less space for the player to explore the dynamic range. Hence people say SS amps feels flat or 2 dimensional etc...

Now, finally here comes my question. If my understanding above from my past experience is not totally wrong, I wouldn't expect AXE III (which I have not got a chance to really try out) to provide obviously better feel when compared to AXE8, FXII or Helix, simply because the power section is outside of unit, and it always comes down to a SS power amp!

Yet, again and again, I read folks claim exactly that here on the forum :) That makes me VERY curious, I am waiting impatiently for the FM3, but meanwhile, I would love hear your thoughts on this topic of "feel".

Enlighten me please :)
 
can't speak to the other modelers you mentioned, but even within the III there were quite a few quantum leaps in terms of feel throughout the various firmware versions. The speaker compliance, gain enhancer, impedance curves... and other (secret) improvements to the amp sim. Not to forget the famous wapoosh!
 
unix-guy said:
The feel is all there WITH a solid state amp because it is purely clean amplification. All the responsiveness is coming from the amp model.
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Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, the feel is definitely different between SS and tube power amps when clean. I've played various SS and tube amps back-to-back many hours and many sessions, to be convinced abut that for sure. From lower level stuff like Katana, Nextone, Blackstar, JC120, etc to higher level modelers...

One interesting story here: I spent hours in multiple sessions comparing Fender Tone Master DR/TR with their tube counterparts. TMs have high quality preamp modeling, no need to model cab or speaker as it has real cab and real guitar speaker, except with a SS power section. I had high hopes for Fender Tone Masters, if any high end modeler could get as close as possible to the real tube, they are likely it!

But after many hours and multiple sessions, I walked away disappointed, the difference in feel becomes painfully clear to me. It's not a tonal difference, e.g. not EQ, not a speaker difference. It's fundamentally how the power section responded to my picking attack. When going through FoH, TMs performs excellently, and audience won't miss a thing, but as guitar players, my finger and brain know the difference pretty much right away.

On the other hand, when plugging my Helix into the power section of a Tube amp, I find that feel is there.

Perhaps, we are not talking about the same feel? I tried to describe/articulate my definition of if, perhaps you guys have your own/different definition or experience?
 
Mark Al said:
Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, the feel is definitely different between SS and tube power amps. I've played various SS and tube amps back-to-back many hours and many sessions, to be convinced abut that for sure. From lower level stuff like Katana, Nextone, Blackstar, JC120, etc to higher level modelers...

One interesting story here: I spent hours in multiple sessions comparing Fender Tone Master DR/TR with their tube counterparts. TMs have high quality preamp modeling, no need to model cab or speaker as it has real cab and real guitar speaker, except with a SS power section. I had high hopes for Fender Tone Masters, if any high end modeler could get as close as possible to the real tube, they are likely it!

But after many hours and multiple sessions, I walked away disappointed, the difference in feel becomes painfully clear to me. It's not a tonal difference, e.g. not EQ, not a speaker difference. It's fundamentally how the power section responded to my picking attack. When going through FoH, TMs performs excellently, and audience won't miss a thing, but as guitar players, my finger and brain know the difference pretty much right away.

On the other hand, when plugging my Helix into the power section of a Tube amp, I find that feel is there.

Perhaps, we are not talking about the same feel? I tried to describe/articulate my definition of if, perhaps you guys have your own/different definition or experience?
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I think you'll need to find someone with a III and try it for yourself. On the other if you don't, you can save a lot of money...
 
My honest opinion after playing in working bands for 30 years: I played tube amps for over 20 years (fenders, Mesas, Marshalls). I switched to Fractal about 6 years ago with an FXII first and then the Ax8. I have had the AxIII for about 2 years now. I originally made the switch because I was having issues with tube amplifiers being affected by fluctuating power supplies in some of the bars and smaller rooms we play. In some cases, I would have to try several outlets to get one that wouldn't make the amp sound like crap. I tried an FXII and I wasn't really impressed by the tone at first but I really liked the fact that it sounded consistently good, even when the power was weak or fluctuating the room. Honestly, I didn't really understand how to properly use the FxII when I had it. I bought the Ax8 and invested some time to get to know the unit. I used the Ax8 with a Matrix SS amp and a Matrix 2x12 cab and I absolutely loved the tone and feel. Honestly, not quite the same feel as a really good tube amp but the benefits far outweighed the small difference in feel. I was not able to use the cab sims because of the amp but I never had a problem creating very convincing and consistently great sounding tones. To me there wasn't much difference between that and my Mesa. I started gigging with the AxIII about a year and half ago. I bought a Mission Gemini II to be able to take advantage of the Cab sims. I invested a lot of time learning how to use it. I use the Gemini II for small room and bar gigs and go direct toFOH for festivals and larger stage gigs. In both cases, I have been very happy with the tone. The feel of the AxIII has definitely improved and to my ear sounds better than the Ax8, especially with the firmware updates in the last 12 months. I occasionally miss my Triaxis and Stereo 2:90 power amp. The tone was really amazing when it was working right but there are trade offs in life. My current rig sounds great in any room and direct and it's a heck of a lot easier to load in/out. I can get incredible tones with great feel and amazing effects that sound consistently great in any setting. To me, that has made me a believer in amp modeling. The technology was great 4-5 years ago. It's even better now. I played through a Helix while sitting in with a friend and it sounded OK but not great. It's not fair for me to try to compare the Helix based on playing it for 10 minutes.
 
Mark Al said:
Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, the feel is definitely different between SS and tube power amps.
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The feel from the tube power amps comes from the circuitry. That circuitry is modeled. Therefore you get that feel...

The Axe is not a preamp that you connect to a power amp. It is a fully modeled amplifier, including the Preamp, the power amp, the cab, the speakers and the mixing console.

Any external power amp is there to add volume.
 
Mark Al said:
Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, the feel is definitely different between SS and tube power amps when clean. I've played various SS and tube amps back-to-back many hours and many sessions, to be convinced abut that for sure. From lower level stuff like Katana, Nextone, Blackstar, JC120, etc to higher level modelers...

One interesting story here: I spent hours in multiple sessions comparing Fender Tone Master DR/TR with their tube counterparts. TMs have high quality preamp modeling, no need to model cab or speaker as it has real cab and real guitar speaker, except with a SS power section. I had high hopes for Fender Tone Masters, if any high end modeler could get as close as possible to the real tube, they are likely it!

But after many hours and multiple sessions, I walked away disappointed, the difference in feel becomes painfully clear to me. It's not a tonal difference, e.g. not EQ, not a speaker difference. It's fundamentally how the power section responded to my picking attack. When going through FoH, TMs performs excellently, and audience won't miss a thing, but as guitar players, my finger and brain know the difference pretty much right away.

On the other hand, when plugging my Helix into the power section of a Tube amp, I find that feel is there.

Perhaps, we are not talking about the same feel? I tried to describe/articulate my definition of if, perhaps you guys have your own/different definition or experience?
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You're referring to using a modeler with an EXTERNAL tube power amp, correct?

A lot of the feeler when using a modeler (IMO) is the speaker setup. Are you playing through a single speaker FRFR, a full-stack, or anywhere in between? It'll all be a little bit different.

The setup I use most often is a modeler both going direct and going to an external marshall cab with a clean rack power amp in between. If I had a full stack equivalent of FRFR speakers, I'd probably use that instead.
 
Our testimonials (on a Fractal board) mean nothing until you have one and try it for yourself.

FWIW, everything will depend on what you put it through and what are its intended uses. You want everything? Get a FRFR speaker and have it all (CLR, Atomic, etc). Get a power amp and a regular cab if you have low variety needs.

I do wonder that you found the Helix on par or better than the Kemper/Axe8, etc. Surprised here.
 
electronpirate said:
Our testimonials (on a Fractal board) mean nothing until you have one and try it for yourself.

FWIW, everything will depend on what you put it through and what are its intended uses. You want everything? Get a FRFR speaker and have it all (CLR, Atomic, etc). Get a power amp and a regular cab if you have low variety needs.

I do wonder that you found the Helix on par or better than the Kemper/Axe8, etc. Surprised here.
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Yeah, I am definitely going to get my hand on one, just waiting for my name to be called from the FM3 waitlist :) Thanks everyone for chiming in so far, all great responses. Feel free to keep it coming.

I never claimed Helix is superior than others, my experience is that they are all pretty much on-par, e.g. a while back just when I thought the Axe8 or Kemper sounds so good, somehow I was able to dial Helix to be right there (sometimes via IRs). However, one thing I have to point out, with Helix it seems easier for users to dial terrible tones... but it's also capable to dial good ones, which howbeit might require a bit more effort for someone who's ears are not well trained...

Now with the algorithm improvement in AXE III in the past year and many saying the distance between it and the older gen getting bigger, that got me quite curious, really look forward to trying one now.

Meanwhile I'd love to understand/hear more specifically what the feel improvement you guys are discussion. To me basically, the feel is how volume dynamic responds to my finger when clean, and how distortion responds to picking when dirty. The response curve is highly non-linear, spacious for exploration and feel right at home with a good tube combo, like the 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb besides me right now :) The SS's dynamic jump and responds too immediately, leaving less room for me to explore that dynamic range.

The SS power section may even have better dynamic range than tube, however, it's hard to "explore" that on SS, due to its too-fast/immediate response.

What is the feel you guys are talking about? :)
 
Mark Al said:
I know what you are saying, but I keep my favorite tube combo nearby and I fire it up once in a while, and it reminds me the feel difference every freaking time...
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Run an Axe Fx with a flat solid state amp into the same speaker cab.

Honestly, I think you can get MORE responsiveness from the Axe Fx because you can run the virtual power section as hard as you want and keep the level tolerable.
 
Geez man, sounds like you'll never be happy unless its exactly the same as your tube amp. And even if it was, previous bias would probably still incline you to not approve. Maybe just stick with what you like if your "feel" is that dialed in? Do you have a link to your music? After all of that "feel" talk I need to hear it 😁

I look at it as a powerful tool, and even playing wireless, with a drop pedal, all that latency, still feels acceptable to me to deliver a performance in a mix, and since it sounds so much better than a noisy tube amp in the room I'm thrilled. 🤷‍♂️
 
Feflicker said:
Geez man, sounds like you'll never be happy unless its exactly the same as your tube amp. And even if it was, previous bias would probably still incline you to not approve. Maybe just stick with what you like if your "feel" is that dialed in? Do you have a link to your music? After all of that "feel" talk I need to hear it 😁

I look at it as a powerful tool, and even playing wireless, with a drop pedal, all that latency, still feels acceptable to me to deliver a performance in a mix, and since it sounds so much better than a noisy tube amp in the room I'm thrilled. 🤷‍♂️
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That's totally besides the point, my friend :)

In fact, I am happy, and actually I am thankful with all the options we have nowadays.

And I think most modelers's tonal quality has been acceptable, in fact more than adequate for live or being in a mix for long time now.

However, as guitar players, somehow our tone searching journeys goes on, especially when we are left alone noodling around with the gear, trying to get inspired by the tone and feel. We all know how much more pragmatic modelers are compared to tube, on the other hand, we all had those glorious inspiring moments when tube amps breath fire and fury, which is what we are modeling after all these years.

Modelings have improved so much, we are probably discussion the last few miles in the journey. Ain't nothing wrong with that right? ;-)
 
The interaction between power amp and speaker attributes a lot to the “feel”. In the past years the Axe-Fx III (and therefore FM3) made a lot of progress in this field. The virtual power amp really feels good through an ss power amp incl. FRFR monitors. Having said that, for the optimal result try a tube-based neutral power amp like Fryette’s Power Station. You still take advantage of the power amp modeling in the Fractal, and you get the real (not simulated) varying impedance interaction of a tube amp plus speaker. To me this is still the best organic sound I’ve ever had. But we’re not talking landslides of difference, more like 10 percent or so.
 
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I always thought the solo from "Another Brick On The Wall" was the ideal strat through an amp sound and used it as reference to dial my strat sound. Turns out not only was that not a strat, it was a Les Paul with P90's, but it was also not an amp. He plugged straight into an SSL. My point is sometimes we get so caught up thinking about what an amp sounds like that we don't really know. I think the Fractal stuff feels like an amp. I felt the Kemper felt like an amp too. But other people think only an amp feels like an amp. Not trying to rant or be unhelpful. Just some ideas.
 
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