XLR out to FOH, 1/4" to amp/cab

skyhighrocks

skyhighrocks

Inspired
I've set up a preset to try to take advantage of using the AX8 fully. I put an fx loop block under my main blocks that has a cab, right after all my fx. It is connected to the out...should it not be?

I guess my question is...I want the full preset going to FOH via XLR outs (volume controlled by the OUT1 main level) and the preset without the cab going to my rig on stage (amp/412) with the volume being controlled by OUT2 level (fx send) (I'm using the amp model from the AX8, not my actual amp's preamp)

Is the loop in the correct spot in order to receive all the fx in the chain? If I move it closer to the amp block, then it doesn't connect to the output at the end of the chain but I don't see how it receives the fx after the cab (like verb, delay, etc). If I put it after the reverb (which is last in chain), it connects to the out....will this affect the level controls?

Here's the screenshot of what I have now...haven't had a chance to test it yet...
 

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No it is not in the right place. As it stand not you are sending the cab sims to your amp/cab which if I am understanding you correctly is not what you want right. What I have seen more people do is they but the cab block at the end of the chain and the fx loop just before it
 
brokenvail said:
No it is not in the right place. As it stand not you are sending the cab sims to your amp/cab which if I am understanding you correctly is not what you want right. What I have seen more people do is they but the cab block at the end of the chain and the fx loop just before it
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So all the FX go before the cab block? I'm just so used to putting fx after amp and cab.
 
Yup, The put the FX after amp but before the cab. There is no other way to do it unless you don't mind sendind the signal with the cab block in it to your real amp/cab (which is how you have it set up in the picture)
 
ok got it! Thanks! I guess I was looking at it like a real world amp and cab together and then rack fx units after that...which is how I set up my other presets.
 
skyhighrocks said:
So all the FX go before the cab block? I'm just so used to putting fx after amp and cab.
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I can't really hear a difference between effect before or after the cab. If you are running into the effects loop of a guitar amp you don't want the cab sim in it.
 
bdrepko said:
I can't really hear a difference between effect before or after the cab. If you are running into the effects loop of a guitar amp you don't want the cab sim in it.
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Yes I do realize that. I was just talking about the conventional real world way of running fx in a loop....usually goes dirt pedals, wah, etc...then amp and cab...then amp loop to the verbs, delays, etc....So putting the cab at the end doesn't mess this up as long as the amp is still before those fx?
 
skyhighrocks said:
Yes I do realize that. I was just talking about the conventional real world way of running fx in a loop....usually goes dirt pedals, wah, etc...then amp and cab...then amp loop to the verbs, delays, etc....So putting the cab at the end doesn't mess this up as long as the amp is still before those fx?
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Some guys argue it sounds different if fx are after amp before cab vs after amp and cab. To do what you want to do this is the way you have to do it. Try it and your ears tell you. Tons of guys do things this way. I don't recall any threads of guys saying that hated how things sounded this way because fx should really be after cab
 
  • analog world it makes a difference whether you put effects before or after the speaker cabinet. It's different with the Axe-Fx II and AX8.
  • Javajunkie: "You can place the effects loop anywhere in the chain (just add the fx loop block). Unless you are running a stereo cab or 2 mono cabs panned hard L/R, you may want to place stereo effects after the cab. The cab is a linear time invariant effect (unless you add drive) so effects like delay and reverb will sound the same before or after it. As Cliff and others have stated on numerous occasions LTI effects can be placed before and after each other and they will sound the same. Only when placed before or after non-LTI effects (drive, amps, et. al) it really matters. The one caveat there is that some effects are mono, placing effects before and after that makes a difference."
  • Cabinet blocks in parallel rows sound louder than a single Cabinet block. Explanation. Bakerman: "It depends on how you're panning. Assuming a mono signal sent to cabs: Stereo cab w/ Pan L and Pan R fully left & right will be the same output level as 2 mono cabs w/ balance L & R. If pans/balances are centered the 2 mono cabs will be 6 dB louder. Balance elsewhere would be between 0 and 6 dB louder, and balance doesn't correspond 1:1 to pan L/R for the same placement. Balances will need to be further toward -50 or 50." source
  • Cliff's comments:
    • "The difference in having the cabinet before or after the effects is usually subtle. It depends on how non-linear or time-variant the effect is. For effects like EQ, which are linear and time-invariant, it doesn't matter at all. For slightly time-variant effects like chorus and flanger the difference isn't very pronounced. For highly time-variant effects, like pitch shifting, the difference can be marked."
    • "Linear means that the output is related to the input by a straight line: y = mx + b. Filters are example of linear systems. A cabinet IR is a filter. Distortion is an example of a nonlinear system. Linear systems are associative and commutative. Associative means that a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c. Commutative means that a + b = b + a or a * b = b * a. Therefore you can do cab -> eq (a * b) or eq -> cab (b * a). The cab block is "completely" linear if motor drive is non-zero but it is "wide sense stationary" so you can treat it as linear." source
    • "The cab block is level-dependent if the Motor Drive is non-zero. So if you turn up/down the level out of the amp block you may need to compensate by doing the opposite with the Motor Drive." source
    • "You gain nothing putting it before the cab and risk collapsing the stereo image if the cab is mono." source
    • "Since a cabinet is linear (or mostly linear) the order is unimportant as linear systems are commutative (a+b = b+a). However if the cab block is mono your effects will collapse to mono if placed before." source
  • ........from the Wiki
 
ok...new question as I'm doing something wrong here...

I have my xlr outs going to my studio monitors and that volume is controlled by out 1 main level knob on the ax8.

I have the out 2 going 1/4" to the fx return on my amp but the volume is still being controlled by out 1...how can I separate the 2 levels?? I don't want to touch the volume to FOH while also being able to add or take away stage rig volume...
 
skyhighrocks said:
I have the out 2 going 1/4" to the fx return on my amp but the volume is still being controlled by out 1...how can I separate the 2 levels?? I don't want to touch the volume to FOH while also being able to add or take away stage rig volume...
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That shouldn't happen. Make sure you're actually using the Out 2 1/4" jacks to amp, not Out 1.
 
Bakerman said:
That shouldn't happen. Make sure you're actually using the Out 2 1/4" jacks to amp, not Out 1.
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Got that and while testing again, I went into the I/O menu and something was wrong in there.

Now there's a new issue...the preset I wrote yesterday before I wanted to try this method sounds much worse than it did before inserting a cab block and fx loop....trying to figure out why. Sounds nothing like it did yesterday...unbelievably HARSH...
 
I have the FOH working fine now...but since I had to add a cab and fx loop to the preset, the sound coming through my on stage rig is much harsher.

The cab is at the end of the chain....the fx loop is under and to the right of the amp block (connected to it) but not connected to the end of the chain.

I have xlr outs to studio interface/monitors

I have out 2 (L) going to the return on my 5153 fx loop. The amp is through a marshall 412 cab.

I'm trying a few different things here to see if I can nail the issue.
 

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I just moved the fx loop block to after the reverb and it helped. I wasn't getting anything as far as after amp fx the other way. I must have misunderstood others...
 
skyhighrocks said:
I have the FOH working fine now...but since I had to add a cab and fx loop to the preset, the sound coming through my on stage rig is much harsher.

The cab is at the end of the chain....the fx loop is under and to the right of the amp block (connected to it) but not connected to the end of the chain.

I have xlr outs to studio interface/monitors

I have out 2 (L) going to the return on my 5153 fx loop. The amp is through a marshall 412 cab.

I'm trying a few different things here to see if I can nail the issue.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest putting the FX loop directly before the cab, so all your effects reach your ears.
 
bradlake said:
I'd suggest putting the FX loop directly before the cab, so all your effects reach your ears.
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Yup, just posted that above...it seemed to help the harshness. I could also be dealing with today is a different day, my ears aren't fatigued, etc...hearing it differently. Wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something stupid and simple here.
 
Are you running Out 2 into the FX loop of a tube amp Rich? Your 5153 50 watt? When I did that I had to do some tweaking of the Global EQ of Output 2 to get it sounding like I wanted.
 
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