Why Hiwatts cannot easily do the Gilmour thing? ("Shine On" preset included)

Piing

Piing

Axe-Master
Many players, both with real amps and on the Axe-FX realm, complain that they cannot get a Gilmour tone with the Hiwatt. One reason may be that Gilmour sets the Master Volume only at 9 o’clock, therefore the mojo doesn’t come from the power amp but from other gear, like the Alembic F-2B rack preamp and the drive pedals.

Let’s focus on just one tone: the first solo at Shine on Your Crazy Diamond from the album Pulse.

Solo starts at minute 2:00


It is very easy to get a tone that sounds good enough for playing that lead with amps like the Twin, but they do not pass a strict A/B comparison to exactly match the tone.

I’ve spent many hours with it, and yesterday I finally managed to consecrate the Holy Trinity Drive/Amp/Cab. I don’t know if it was pure coincidence or an auspicious alignment of the planets, but I’ve really got a very decent clone!

AMP1:
I’ve tried many, including twins, marshalls, Friedman, Bludo… Sometimes I got nice tones, but they didn’t pass the A/B test. I went back to the Hiwatt again and again, but it was never right, no matter how I set the parameters, until I got the right combination of Drive, Cab and a second Amp.

AMP1.jpg

Besides those basic settings, I’ve slightly increased the Character Amt (under Dynamics parameters).


DRIVE:
Boosters didn’t do the job, so I finally I used the Tube Drive 3-knob blending the signal with the clean guitar.
Drive.jpg


CAB:
This choice has been very time consuming. I think that I own all the Fane IR’s available, but none sounds quite right for this. I decided to go Marshall, and I found the right match on Cab Pack 20 ML-Brit-4x12-Collection. The IR is ML Brit 80s E906-MD421 03.

I’ve tried to find a match from the factory cabs, but they don’t pass the A/B test (at least with the current settings).
CAB.jpg


I am wondering why I cannot get it right with any other IR, no matter how I adjust the settings

AMP2:
The addition of AMP2 is what made me shout “Eureka!”

Knowing that Gilmour uses an external preamp, I added the Tube-Pre amp. The right position was between AMP1 and the CAB.

Using the EQ on this block has a different result than whith regular EQ blocks.
AMP2.jpg



FX:
There is room for improvement with the settings of Chorus, Delay and Reverb. I haven’t paid much attention to it. Suggestions are welcome.

GUITAR
American Deluxe Strat with EMG SA pups. SPC set to 4 and EXG to 8.

PRESET:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/isg5oix7mspuyns/Hiwatt Tube.syx?dl=0

Remember to set the correct IR on U024
CAB24.jpg


Perhaps it could be simpler than that, or with a complete different approach, but that is the only way I could get close enough. Any other takes?

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Edit to update preset:
____________________________________________________________
Rev.3 Thank you DLC86 for the FX settings
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gnbx7gercb7d1r7/Hiwatt Tube 3.syx?dl=0
____________________________________________________________
Rev. 4 Quantum 7.01 Optical Compressor
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g0g4x0ykifhs829/Hiwatt Tube 4.syx?dl=0
____________________________________________________________
 
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I would love to hear a clip of the tone you are getting with that preset and your guitar.

Have you tried the Brit Floyd presets from a few years ago? I don't know if anyone has tried / tweaked them for Quantum 7 but they may be a good option also.
 
I think people continue to underestimate how drastically the IR can impact your tone.
You can have all the same gear as an artist, but if your mic placement is different than his, you're not really using 100% the same setup, are you?

If you've got the right EQ settings on the amp, you're only going to skew things by using the wrong EQ curve in the IR.

Glad you were able to find what you were looking for- the triumph of perseverance!
 
Piing said:
Many players, both with real amps and on the Axe-FX realm, complain that they cannot get a Gilmour tone with the Hiwatt. One reason may be that Gilmour sets the Master Volume only at 9 o’clock, therefore the mojo doesn’t come from the power amp but from other gear, like the Alembic F-2B rack preamp and the drive pedals.

Let’s focus on just one tone: the first solo at Shine on Your Crazy Diamond from the album Pulse.

Solo starts at minute 2:00


It is very easy to get a tone that sounds good enough for playing that lead with amps like the Twin, but they do not pass a strict A/B comparison to exactly match the tone.

I’ve spent many hours with it, and yesterday I finally managed to consecrate the Holy Trinity Drive/Amp/Cab. I don’t know if it was pure coincidence or an auspicious alignment of the planets, but I’ve really got a very decent clone!

AMP1:
I’ve tried many, including twins, marshalls, Friedman, Bludo… Sometimes I got nice tones, but they didn’t pass the A/B test. I went back to the Hiwatt again and again, but it was never right, no matter how I set the parameters, until I got the right combination of Drive, Cab and a second Amp.

AMP1.jpg

Besides those basic settings, I’ve slightly increased the Character Amt (under Dynamics parameters).


DRIVE:
Boosters didn’t do the job, so I finally I used the Tube Drive 3-knob blending the signal with the clean guitar.
Drive.jpg


CAB:
This choice has been very time consuming. I think that I own all the Fane IR’s available, but none sounds quite right for this. I decided to go Marshall, and I found the right match on Cab Pack 20 ML-Brit-4x12-Collection. The IR is ML Brit 80s E906-MD421 03.

I’ve tried to find a match from the factory cabs, but they don’t pass the A/B test (at least with the current settings).
CAB.jpg


I am wondering why I cannot get it right with any other IR, no matter how I adjust the settings

AMP2:
The addition of AMP2 is what made me shout “Eureka!”

Knowing that Gilmour uses an external preamp, I added the Tube-Pre amp. The right position was between AMP1 and the CAB.

Using the EQ on this block has a different result than whith regular EQ blocks.
AMP2.jpg



FX:
There is room for improvement with the settings of Chorus, Delay and Reverb. I haven’t paid much attention to it. Suggestions are welcome.

GUITAR
American Deluxe Strat with EMG SA pups. SPC set to 4 and EXG to 8.

PRESET:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/isg5oix7mspuyns/Hiwatt Tube.syx?dl=0

Remember to set the correct IR on U024
CAB24.jpg


Perhaps it could be simpler than that, or with a complete different approach, but that is the only way I could get close enough. Any other takes?
Click to expand...

For Pulse sounds I created an amp block that resembles the alembic+hiwatt combo very closely imho.
I'm not near my axe right now but basically I selected the vibrato verb ab model (the alembic is almost identical to a fender ab preamp) and copied all power amp and speaker related parameters from the Hiwatt model (in that tour Gilmour used his hiwatts just as power amps, preamps were bypassed), switched preamp Sag off and created an IR mix of starfound and basketweave cabs. Also experiment with preamp low cut, his alembic was modified to cut some low frequencies.
Another important aspect of that sound is the modulation, he used a boss ce2 at the end of the chain and only on one side, and the doppolas that were custom rotary speakers.
I'll send you a patch as soon as i get home ;)
 
Gilmour's tone is a mix of a lots of small amounts of modulations. 10 or 15% mix rotary, some CE2 chorus or a flanger with a light mix etc. No one effect is really overly in your face, they are all subtle and in the background, but they all add up to give a ton of space and dynamics to his tone
 
Here it is (preset+cab), let me know what you think ;)

Ps: obviously some adjustments would be needed to adapt to different guitars, eventually back off the guitar volume knob if you experience too much gain.
The first filter block is there to simulate the EMG SPC control, turn it off if you have the DG-20 set.
 

Attachments

  • Shine (PULSE).syx
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  • WEM + Marshall.syx
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DLC86 said:
Here it is (preset+cab), let me know what you think ;)

Ps: obviously some adjustments would be needed to adapt to different guitars, eventually back off the guitar volume knob if you experience too much gain.
The first filter block is there to simulate the EMG SPC control, turn it off if you have the DG-20 set.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for sharing your preset! That sounds great

I have borrowed your effects into my preset :cool: and now the chorus/delay/reverb/rotary is much better :)

Here is the result:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gnbx7gercb7d1r7/Hiwatt Tube 3.syx?dl=0

Not much time to play now though... Waiting for the weekend!!
 
I play in a Floyd cover band and use the Hiwatts for about 3/4 of the set. When played clean, I feel like the Hiwatts really impart the character of the pickups you're playing through them, so they can be pretty versatile.

I have always run my gain setup as Drive -> Null Filter (8-10 dB of gain) -> Amp. The filter block pretty much always stays on. It may very well be placebo effect, but I have always preferred hitting the clean-ish Hiwatt with additional clean gain from the null filter, as opposed to using the boost switch, or simply turning up the input drive. In any case, I think you are on to something with your Drive -> Amp -> Amp setting, as opposed to just Drive -> Amp.

I use a Strat with single coils through a Hiwatt for all of DSOTM (except, money, which requires a 24-fret guitar). The rhythm tones are pretty spot on, although I never attempted to A/B my live sound against an album mix.

I use a Carvin DC400A with humbuckers and active eq for the Wall. This guitar sounds a bit more sterile - the bridge pickup is high gain, but not very vintage or hairy sounding, which I think helps with the slightly more processed tones on the wall. I think I'd prefer single coils for the solo on Another Brick Pt 2, but there's no time to swap guitars before that song.

I could never get the Hiwatts to sound right on Shine On, so on that one, I use a Fender Twin with a compressor in front of it.

I do break from the Gilmour tradition on 2 things: I have still never gotten the Big Muff to sound quite right, so I don't use it. I also don't like chorus on my solos, so I don't do that either. But if you can get the right univibe and delay settings, the Hiwatt's will nail a ton of the Pink Floyd stuff in a live setting.
 
Roger Water's touring guitarist Dave Kilminster did a pretty spot on job during the The Wall tour and he never used a Muff either. Suhr Riot I believe was his drive pedal of choice

I think there is a bit too much cork sniffing regarding some aspects of Gilmour's tone. Its not like anything other than a specific transistor rams head muff will sound right, or you can't do a Pulse version of a song without a Civil War etc
 
Hello guys
Ciao ragazzi

Here it would serve only one channel for Gilmour :D:D:D:D
Qui servirebbe un canale solo per Gilmour

Thanks for sharing
Grazie per la condivisione
 
NaturalScience said:
I use a Strat with single coils through a Hiwatt for all of DSOTM (except, money, which requires a 24-fret guitar). The rhythm tones are pretty spot on, although I never attempted to A/B my live sound against an album mix.
I could never get the Hiwatts to sound right on Shine On, so on that one, I use a Fender Twin with a compressor in front of it.
Click to expand...

Great! There are many tones that can sound amazing for playing those songs wihout trying to nail the original. I am only doing the A/B comparison as a hobby & fun-challenge, since now I am not even playing in a band.
 
Forgetting about the playing, and with the risk of committing blasphemy and heresy, I have to say that I prefer the Axe-FX tone. It’s more “dynamic” and less processed.
 
Looking forward to trying this out. Saw Gilmour at Madison Square Garden last year. One of the most incredible shows I've ever seen.
 
Piing said:
Forgetting about the playing, and with the risk of committing blasphemy and heresy, I have to say that I prefer the Axe-FX tone. It’s more “dynamic” and less processed.
Click to expand...
Hi
Thanks for sharing all your work!!!
I m new to fractal product and always enjoy Gilmour sounds and of course his own feeling when he plays , his taste, he makes his strat sings like no one else....
I ve read all the..... technicals things on his sound and how to approach it
I like that !!!! But I m also far from That and far from you and your knowledge....
So there s song I ve never managed to get close even with amp and pedals....
This song is SORROW.....
So i d like your help to get close to it , if someone has preset to share, a lot of work, effects and a very complex equation to create this sound
Thanks and sorry for my .... french English!!!!
Fabrice
 
@fafakiwi I think a lot of people forget pickups in the quest for Gilmour-like tones. It's important to note the bridge pickup for Sorrow.
The way I approach it is to have a clean Hiwatt with good cabs...right now I'm mixing a hiwatt cab with an SM57 on the left with a Marshall with a R121 on the right or it could be both on each side, I can't remember.

Signal chain is usually something like the following:
  • Opto comp
  • Maybe a boost (Tube Driver or FET Boost will do - I prefer putting a bit of gain on a Tube Driver) (and can go before or after your Muff)
  • Muff with a fairly high gain
  • CE-2 (can go before the amp (my preference) or after the cabs. You may also want to do the Gilmour thing and turn the mix down, OR you could pan it to the left, with no chorus on the right, which makes some nice textures)
  • Amp and Cabs
  • Digital delay 400-500ms (guess) with roughly around 20% mix
  • Optional rotary (I don't like it though)
All of the above are guesses without looking at my preset, but it should get you an approximation. I'll check later, when I get home to see how accurate it is!

Needless to say, Sorrow is one of the more obtainable tones that you definitely can get as far as Gilmour is concerned.

Also, you'll find the feedback is easier to get with loud volumes. And don't be afraid (sacrilege) to use humbuckers! :)
 
Jonathan Thomas said:
@fafakiwi
Also, you'll find the feedback is easier to get with loud volumes. And don't be afraid (sacrilege) to use humbuckers! :)
Click to expand...

No such a sacrilege: I have a strat based in Gilmour's black strat with two CS '69s and a Seymour Duncan Custom Shop SSL1C-DG and I find I can get a very similar tone with my Suhr Classic Pro with SSV humbucker in the bridge position.
 
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