Tricks on getting punch and sustain live without going overboard on the gain?

tallcoolone

tallcoolone

Inspired
Played direct to FOH this weekend and it was a huge improvement on my first 'live' effort at practice where I had way too much gain and bass and not enough mids. Still, I feel as though I am still borderline too heavy on the gain (Dirty Shirley at 10:30/11:00) but I still want more punch and sustain. Any tricks/tips on getting a good punchy singing lead tone that retains string definition (the reason I don't just want to throw a compressor in there)?

Thanks--you guys are a godsend to a new user...
 
In my experience, that's an inherent problem with FRFR. It's a polished studio sound, not necessarily a live "guitar-in-your-face" sound. Other than that, which I admit is not helping, you need plenty of volume and probably a touch less gain, plenty of mids.
 
nater said:
In my experience, that's an inherent problem with FRFR. It's a polished studio sound, not necessarily a live "guitar-in-your-face" sound. Other than that, which I admit is not helping, you need plenty of volume and probably a touch less gain, plenty of mids.
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I agree with this but the problem is that every live tone is essentially going FR when sent to the FOH.


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boltrecords said:
I agree with this but the problem is that every live tone is essentially going FR when sent to the FOH.


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Right, but FOH is for the audience, and they're only listening. Going FRFR is not a consolation for the audience, as you said, even real cabs are miced for FOH. But, your on stage tone in the FRFR world is... well.... like playing through monitors. It's going to lack a little punch in the band mix.... just my experience. But, a lot of this depends on the type of music you play, how loud the stage is etc. etc. A lot of people making the switch to FRFR seem to chime in about this very problem.

IMO - I don't think this issue is really "solved" for the "real cab" guys that want FRFR options. Some just accept that it's different and they get used to it, and some don't. I haven't tried every FRFR, but the few different ones I've tried, I've come to the same conclusion.... its' just not quite there yet in terms of that real amp/cab response.
 
I feel the same way too. With respect to punch, I personally only really feel it when I'm monitoring myself with a real cab.

Sustain on the other hand, you could probably get if you turn up your monitor and interact with it in a similar manner to a real cab.
 
Lower the gain and increase some low eq bands instead, play around with 125, 250 and 500, that's a point to start.
 
I understand the need to lower the gain, but I feel as though I should be able to have an amps gain below noon and have it sound full and clear on stage. I have been gigging mainly with a Mark V and I live on Ch3/extreme with the gain at about noon and I sound big, full and punchy. Same with my Friedman with the gain set about the same. If I can't turn up the gain on the AFX sims past 9:00 or so, how is that anything like the amps that it is modeling?
 
tallcoolone said:
I understand the need to lower the gain, but I feel as though I should be able to have an amps gain below noon and have it sound full and clear on stage. I have been gigging mainly with a Mark V and I live on Ch3/extreme with the gain at about noon and I sound big, full and punchy. Same with my Friedman with the gain set about the same. If I can't turn up the gain on the AFX sims past 9:00 or so, how is that anything like the amps that it is modeling?
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I think things are getting mixed up a bit here... adding gain will probably give you less 'punch' as it naturally squashes the dynamics, and will therefore give you more sustain. However, if your talking about the low end thump that cabs get from just the right amount of gain and master dialed in at the right volume then that different. I personally use a compressor block before my amp block so that I can keep the gain lower but still get the sustain I am after. But if you are trying to compare the 'feel' of FRFR to having a cab blowing at your back, your gonna miss the cab :( It took me some time to get passed this, but once I got used to it I wouldn't go back.

As far as just adding some punch goes, try messing with some of the dynamic controls in the advanced pages. I believe the thump parameters have been removed in the latest FW, but you could try stuff like dynamic presence/ect. It may not be as straight forward as going straight into an amp to a cab, but its like comparing apples and oranges if your not running the axe through the same cab.
 
Use a comp block in front of the amp.

Then bump the amp block geq 125 cycles by 1.5db, cut 500 cycles -1db.

Somewhere around 500 cycles is mud. I find I need to cut some of the mud to get the low end girth that feels right. Just bumping the lows without cutting the mud doesn't work for me.

I prefer the sound of the var q eq too vs. the const q.
 
toolfanem said:
I think things are getting mixed up a bit here... adding gain will probably give you less 'punch' as it naturally squashes the dynamics, and will therefore give you more sustain. However, if your talking about the low end thump that cabs get from just the right amount of gain and master dialed in at the right volume then that different. I personally use a compressor block before my amp block so that I can keep the gain lower but still get the sustain I am after. But if you are trying to compare the 'feel' of FRFR to having a cab blowing at your back, your gonna miss the cab :( It took me some time to get passed this, but once I got used to it I wouldn't go back.

As far as just adding some punch goes, try messing with some of the dynamic controls in the advanced pages. I believe the thump parameters have been removed in the latest FW, but you could try stuff like dynamic presence/ect. It may not be as straight forward as going straight into an amp to a cab, but its like comparing apples and oranges if your not running the axe through the same cab.
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That's the thing that I'm having an issue with--I have the capability to run the AFX model through an IR through my studio monitors, then directly and immediately compare the ACTUAL amp through the SAME IR through the SAME monitors. Sounds and more importantly FEELS pretty damn identical. At lower volumes. But once I try and turn everything up to drummer level, I lose sustain, the gain gets fizzy, mids fall out and the entire feel changes. Frustrating, as my time avail to play guitar is limited and valuable and I get very frustrated throwing EQs and compressors in front of what is supposed to be the most advanced modeling in the world, just to make it sound and feel like the amp it is modeling.
 
tallcoolone said:
That's the thing that I'm having an issue with--I have the capability to run the AFX model through an IR through my studio monitors, then directly and immediately compare the ACTUAL amp through the SAME IR through the SAME monitors. Sounds and more importantly FEELS pretty damn identical. At lower volumes. But once I try and turn everything up to drummer level, I lose sustain, the gain gets fizzy, mids fall out and the entire feel changes. Frustrating, as my time avail to play guitar is limited and valuable and I get very frustrated throwing EQs and compressors in front of what is supposed to be the most advanced modeling in the world, just to make it sound and feel like the amp it is modeling.
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And the real amp doesn't do the same thing when you turn it up? I am assuming you are turning up the mater vol on real amp, are you turning up the master vol parameter on you patch or the level parameter? If its a case of the axe fx is going through a PA and the real amp going though a cab, that is probably where the problem is. Of course the PA wont sound exactly the same as the cab when you turn them both up. Did you try making to different patches, one for low volume and another for when your really cranking it? Thats what I am doing. I would have to retweak a real amp anyway when going from bedroom volume to gig volume.
 
toolfanem said:
And the real amp doesn't do the same thing when you turn it up? I am assuming you are turning up the mater vol on real amp, are you turning up the master vol parameter on you patch or the level parameter? If its a case of the axe fx is going through a PA and the real amp going though a cab, that is probably where the problem is. Of course the PA wont sound exactly the same as the cab when you turn them both up. Did you try making to different patches, one for low volume and another for when your really cranking it? Thats what I am doing. I would have to retweak a real amp anyway when going from bedroom volume to gig volume.
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Well, to answer your opening question--not really. I mean I do have to occasionally nudge the gain down at soundcheck, but as far as 're-tweaking' my tones the answer is pretty much no. And this is for a supposedly 'complex' amp like the Mark V that so many folks find hard to dial in. I absolutely never touch any knobs on my Marshalls except for the master when setting my stage level. Of course, after playing tube amps for 20 odd years I understand the difference in 'feel' when going from low to high SPLs.

I have zero issues with the lack of 'amp in room', but I do expect the IRs I use to give me back the experience of hearing my mic'd cab through my stage monitors. My problem I guess boils down to the apparent requirement for a live AFX user to be able to come up with a formula that will counteract the negative reaction this tech seems to have with the aforementioned FM effect. Like I said, at low volumes under the same conditions the AFX is nuts on to the feel and tone of their respective tube amps. Incredibly cool stuff. No adjustments, no EQ, no compression--just the amp block and an IR capture the experience with no effort whatsoever. Not the same situation when played at volume however.
 
toolfanem said:
If its a case of the axe fx is going through a PA and the real amp going though a cab, that is probably where the problem is.
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Not the situation--I compared the real amps through a Torpedo Live load box through the same IR and same monitors that I am running only the basic Amp/IR in the AFX through. At lower volumes, they match. At volume is when the AFX needs significant 'doctoring'. Personally, I would GREATLY prefer the LOW volume AFX tones need the work but it seems as though it was designed the other way around.
 
that's why you have to tweak at gig levels....you'll never tweak at bedroom and be happy live, unless you learn how to compensate at bedroom levels by ear (i have, for the most part, by dialing in darker and thinner than i would prefer...usually translates pretty well)

also, do you tweak and play with your real cab pointed at your face? ear on axis with where the mic would be?
 
Thus is my current problem. The axe itself doesn't create volume, obviously. It's doing a fine job of emulating the tube amp. The problem arises when you need to amplify that signal for playing with a real band. How do you maintain that feel at higher volumes? That response you normally get with real amps and cabs?. This is what I mean by the FRFR problem isn't really solved. IMO.
 
jlynnb1 said:
that's why you have to tweak at gig levels....you'll never tweak at bedroom and be happy live, unless you learn how to compensate at bedroom levels by ear (i have, for the most part, by dialing in darker and thinner than i would prefer...usually translates pretty well)

also, do you tweak and play with your real cab pointed at your face? ear on axis with where the mic would be?
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I live in a high end loft complex--there is no option for me to ever play at volume unless I am at rehearsal or a gig. I never have really "tweaked" before--I've always used tube amps, spent a few minutes dialing in my tone, then locked the knobs in place. Whether I am playing a small club out of my 4x12 cab with greenbacks, a large room with my oversized 2x12 with Emi Delta Pros or an outdoor venue with my Thiele 1x12 with an EV--the differences are always within my own personal tolerances I guess. I mean these situations are different, volumes are different, speakers are different but in the end I always have been relatively happy with my tone. This is why I am having issues--tube amps just aren't as "picky". When I use the AFX live, I will most likely be running through whatever wedge monitor the venue has.
 
nater said:
Thus is my current problem. The axe itself doesn't create volume, obviously. It's doing a fine job of emulating the tube amp. The problem arises when you need to amplify that signal for playing with a real band. How do you maintain that feel at higher volumes? That response you normally get with real amps and cabs?. This is what I mean by the FRFR problem isn't really solved. IMO.
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That's the thing--it IS emulating the response of the real amp. Just to a certain volume level, then it falls apart. Not sure if you have any of the amps the AFX models but I do and have run them through the same speakers and IRs--they sound and FEEL alike until they reach a certain volume level.

Anyway, I'm off track--I do need to figure out how to compensate. I've already come a long way since my first try, just need to fine tune. I'm not into "nuance" LOL--I want to be able to run these presets through any stage monitor and get a reasonably consistent feel.
 
I've been experiencing this frustration myself. I set up my presets at what I considered to be performance volumes, but last weekend we had an outdoor gig, and I pushed everything to a higher volume level and it all turned to sh*t. I was frustrated enough that I actually fired up my Triaxis/2:90 rig this week, and am thinking about going back to that. I love the flexibility and wide range of tones I can get from FRFR, but if I have to have 3 sets of presets (room level, performance level, crazy loud cover your ears level) I'm not sure it's going to work for me. Maybe the trick, as toolfanem alludes to, is increasing the Master Volume, not the output level?? It's worth a shot. :)
 
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