Thoughts on FW 14 AST and other Clean-ish amps?

Variable

Variable

Inspired
I'm a bit curious about the gain taper on some of the NMV amp models in FW14. It seems like it has made some of the more vintage, slightly distorted-style amps (AST, Fenders, etc) really gainy.

I own a real Atomic Space Tone Jr, which is a similar circuit but single-ended, and even at just one 6V6, it has WAY less gain than the FW 14 AST model on similar settings. With my Suhr Pro S1, I can stay clean even with with the bridge humbucker when the volume is below 5. I can't seem to get a clean tone at all out of the FW14 AST without messing with the Input Trim.

I know Cliff has mentioned that the Master Volume taper doesn't necessarily match the real amp (please correct me if I'm wrong). Does that extend also to non-MV amps since the Input Drive is effectively the Volume control on the real amp?

Here's a nice vid of a real AST as a reference (only because it includes the settings on the amp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gUm1fDKrQ4
 
The Input Trim setting in the Amp Block is a key thing for me when trying to tame things - I invariable end up setting it to 0.5

Rightly or wrongly, it helps clean up the Wah and Humbucker signal - there's still several other ways to get the gain if / when required
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FractalAudio said:
If you typically plug into the "Low" jack on a guitar amp then you would need to set the Input Trim to 0.5.
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Actually, I typically plug into the High input :)

This is with a Suhr Pro S1, V60LP pickups in neck and middle, SSV in bridge. What was quite clean in 13.07 now sounds rather distorted (after the usual amp block resets, etc etc etc).

Is there a default input trim we should be using in V14? Is "1.0" really higher than what would be hitting the front end of the amp's real life counterpart? Just curious as I know others have mentioned in the FW14 thread that their clean presets are distorting a bit earlier vs. 13.07. Thank you!
 
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I totally agree. This issue came up several firmwares back that mainly the Fender sims were very gain. It got better (seemingly) over time & now it's back to being harder to get a good, full, clean sound out of many of these amps. Some I already had the input gain down & they are still distorting. I hope this is looked at as v14 overall sounds great!
 
Did you "update all presets"? It seems to resolve all kinds of weirdness...

I myself noticed very little difference in my clean sounds, although they are already a bit on the hairy side (Budda, AC20, DC30, Z8).
 
I installed v14 a total of 4 times. The first 2 just didn't sound good even after updating all presets. Went back to v13.07. Tried v14 again the next day & got a data transfer error. Tried again, updated all presets & it has since sounded great. Every time though, I thought certain Fender & a few other amps distort too easily. Definitely more than v13.
 
I can't get the truly full clean sound out of any of the Voxy models, as I can out of my real AC30 either. Turning down the trim and MV helps, but it's not quite the same.
My AC is an 80's one modded to '64 specs.

I do use the high input on my Vox, so that would be the trim at noon, wouldn't it?

Jan
 
I'm intrested to know 2 things.

What amps' MV don't match the real one?

And how is it possible that reinstalling a firmware for a second time yields different results? (sounds different when installed again as stated by notalemming)
 
Raab90 said:
And how is it possible that reinstalling a firmware for a second time yields different results? (sounds different when installed again as stated by notalemming)
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The global settings, modeling algorithms, preset data, and user cab data are somewhat handled separately.

For example, updating the firmware does not change global settings (might add new ones though) and it doesn't change preset data or user cab data.

So depending on the preset or a global setting, things can be "off" after a firmware update.

It is possible to reset everything, global settings, preset data, user cabs, to a known good state though. Search out the threads and Wiki on reset procedures.
 
unix-guy said:
Did you "update all presets"? It seems to resolve all kinds of weirdness...

I myself noticed very little difference in my clean sounds, although they are already a bit on the hairy side (Budda, AC20, DC30, Z8).
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Actually, Update All Presets only updates the presets to the current FW version. It does nothing to the actual amp block parameters.

Update All Presets - Axe-Fx II Wiki

Anyway, I did do the double press bypass / select a different amp and go back to the original protocol in these instances, and the AST, Carr, and cleaner Fenders all sound much more distorted than I was expecting compared to 13.07. I also went back to 13.07 briefly to compare, and sure enough, the Carr and AST patches I had were much cleaner. Went back to 14 and the dirt was there; it's very much a top end, kinda blurry distortion. One might call it shimmer, except it's more distorted than that.

What WAS interesting when I was testing last night is that turning down the MV on those amps DID clean them up. Much better than using Input Trim if I'm honest. It almost feels like there is more power amp distortion going on than you would expect with the Input Drive settings I used. So it makes sense that turning down MV would lessen the virtual power amp overdrive. I'm hoping Cliff can clarify exactly what would happen on a NMV style amp when turning down the MV control (since it doesn't really have one).
 
Variable said:
Actually, Update All Presets only updates the presets to the current FW version. It does nothing to the actual amp block parameters.

Update All Presets - Axe-Fx II Wiki

Anyway, I did do the double press bypass / select a different amp and go back to the original protocol in these instances, and the AST, Carr, and cleaner Fenders all sound much more distorted than I was expecting compared to 13.07. I also went back to 13.07 briefly to compare, and sure enough, the Carr and AST patches I had were much cleaner. Went back to 14 and the dirt was there; it's very much a top end, kinda blurry distortion. One might call it shimmer, except it's more distorted than that.

What WAS interesting when I was testing last night is that turning down the MV on those amps DID clean them up. Much better than using Input Trim if I'm honest. It almost feels like there is more power amp distortion going on than you would expect with the Input Drive settings I used. So it makes sense that turning down MV would lessen the virtual power amp overdrive. I'm hoping Cliff can clarify exactly what would happen on a NMV style amp when turning down the MV control (since it doesn't really have one).
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If I have a compressor in front, I make sure it is not boosting the signal. If you use the make-up gain, it it much louder than when the comp is in bypass. It would be nice if the make-up gain just made the compressed & bypassed mode the same volume. I also wonder if turning down the master volume trim would be better. Most of those amps seem to change overall sound as well as distortion characteristics when turned down although I haven't had a chance to try that in v14 yet.
 
notalemming said:
If I have a compressor in front, I make sure it is not boosting the signal. If you use the make-up gain, it it much louder than when the comp is in bypass. It would be nice if the make-up gain just made the compressed & bypassed mode the same volume. I also wonder if turning down the master volume trim would be better. Most of those amps seem to change overall sound as well as distortion characteristics when turned down although I haven't had a chance to try that in v14 yet.
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No compressor block, just guitar->amp->cab->reverb (in parallel).
 
I know what the Update All Presets does. I experienced a similar problem to yours on a previous FW and as soon as I performed that step everything sounded great!

Also there was a change to the noise gate in this FW that might be contributing. Read the release notes... I have NG disabled in ally presets.
 
nambutio said:
I also think the same, Fenders and Vox break up faster compared to the originals.
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I do seem to be getting slightly better results with the Double Verb on a brand new patch. I might try creating a from-scratch AST/Carr patch and see how that goes... so far I'm acceptably clean with the Input Drive on 3 (which is stupid crazy loud on a real Twin if I remember correctly).
 
I think you should throw out everything when going to a new FW. Try new cabs, or readjust the ones you know.

I've been getting clean, high definition tone since this new FW. It has not been seamless, but the release notes 'This may change your existing presets' does not kid around.

I suggest posting a preset that is too 'gainy' and have us take a look.

R
 
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