Thinking of dumping my Bogner

Roland Deschain said:
A couple of questions,
- With the FRFR setup I think I would get the Atomic CLR Powered Wedge, seems to be well reviewed and a popular choice, are there alternate speakers I should check out?
- Do I need 2 wedges?
- Assuming I go with the above mentioned FRFR setup, will I be able to get some good tones out of the box, or am I straight away into editing hell?
- Can I run the software through my Ipad?
-What is this 15 days you speak of?
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Though I personally don't own a CLR, based on what I have read and what has been posted on this and other forums. The CLR would be a great choice for an FRFR rig for the money, one of if not the best out there. If you think you might want something a little more guitar'ish speaker type I believe Matrix, Xitone and Mission Engineering have something that fits that bill. Just keep in mind that when your listening to an FRFR rig your listening to a mic'd up amp and guitar cab through a monitor it's not quite the same as the "Amp in the Room" vibe.

No, personally I would go for a stereo rig it's not needed but if your not giging much or any longer why not, I mean you have two ears right? and if you have the funds by all means treat your self.

You should be able to get going pretty quick with an FRFR setup, you might have to setup start and stop freqs in some presets to tame highs and lows but nothing really complicated. this unit can be as simple or as deep as you want it to be.

Not yet.

Buy it try it for 15 days if you don't like it send it back for a full refund!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do man!
 
Roland Deschain said:
A couple of questions,
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- With the FRFR setup I think I would get the Atomic CLR Powered Wedge, seems to be well reviewed and a popular choice, are there alternate speakers I should check out? >> Yes, but the CLR are very popular.

- Do I need 2 wedges? >> No, one is dang loud. Stereo is a trip though. It's more than twice as fun to noodle away in stereo. The effects are stellar.

- Assuming I go with the above mentioned FRFR setup, will I be able to get some good tones out of the box, or am I straight away into editing hell? >> No problem out of the box. Most factory presets sound pretty good to start with, and I find the only things I really adjust are the common controls: gain, master, bass, mid, treble, presence, etc. I also always switch to "vintage" mode. There isn't much tweaking needed to the amps any more. Just drop an amp and cab in and go. Add some reverb, a TS9, a Fuzz Face or a Tube Driver and you're all set. Maybe a delay with a tape sound. The amps sound really good and react to the pedals like the real thing, i think, so it's pretty easy to dial them in. The new reverbs are killer and the delays too. You won't find pedals or many rack units that sound that good, IMHO. The cool thing about the CLR is you can really hear the detail. They are pretty high resolution.

- Can I run the software through my Ipad? >>I'm not sure about this. I think guys with an Ipad need to connect a mac or pc to the AXE first, then it will see the Ipad. Not sure though.

-What is this 15 days you speak of? >>Send it back in 15 days if you don't like it for any reason and get your cash back. You wont send it back tho. It's worth it just for the effects.

Don't think of it as losing an amp, think of it as gaining about 206 amps. 206 of the best guitar amplifiers ever made.
I have to go cry now, I'm so damn happy.
 
There are three factors to consider here:

1) Sound
2) Feel
3) Reliability

The answers imo are quite simple:

1) The sounds u gonna get from the AXE are completely authentic, they sound like tubeamps and react like tube amps 99,99999999% match if not 100%. Same with cabs as long as you use a FRFR system.

2) The thump and punch you describe are the product of high volume. The axe WILL give you that feeling of punch and thump and wind through ur legs, but only as long as you crank it up at tube amp volumes. Now if you can't play at high volumes due to ur kids, then neither a real amp or the axe will do, as in both of em at ear or room levels will lose the power to push air hard (thump and punch). In this case however, the AXE will still sound good tho, since u can crank the virtual power amp up independently from the real level of the amp. The real amp won't be able to do this.

3) Just as someone mentioned earlier, th AXE is made of ICs and porcessors. If something dies, there's no way u can fix it. Your tube amp can easily be worked around and replace the AXE in case such an improbable event occurs. Also, the bogner is a piece of nice furniture, and it has sentimental value.


Also consider this:

Is the bogner model going to sound exactly like yours? Most likely not, since the model in the AXE was brough from a different amp than yours, and no amp in the world is the same as the other, even if they are the same model, and were built on the very same day. This is due to slight variations in internat behaviour due to components, wiring and connections. However, you can make up for the differences, and make the AXE's model match yours by tweaking "internal" calues of the model that represent this very variations.

Lastly, about FRFR or a Real cab:

*Cabs are non-unitary, non-full-range filter, which means it will cut and amplify different frequencies, hence modifying the frequency spectrum of whatever came in. A unitary filter, keeps whatever comes out the same way it went in, so it won't modify the input. It kinda does nothing.

Suppose u place ur ear right next to a real cab, say, a 1960A, so the path is: Amp > 1960A (Filter) > Ear.
You would be listening to the amp through a 1960A cab.

Now swap the amp for an AXE with only an amp block on. Then it would still be: Amp > 1960A (Filter) > Ear.
You would be listening to the amp through a 1960A cab.

Say you add a Cab block/IR (Filter) in the AXE, that's based on a 4x12 Fawn. Then it would be: Amp > Fawn (Filter)*1960A (Filter) > Ear.
You would be listening the amp through neither the 1960A nor the Fawn, but a convolution of both.

How to solve this?

Instead of using the 1960A, use a FRFR system which is a unitary filter. Then it would be: Amp > Fawn (Filter)*FRFR system (Filter) > Ear.

Since the FRFR system is a unitary filter, we can say:

FRFR system (Filter) = 1

And thus substitute "FRFR system (Filter)" for a "1"
This way, you'll have the following:

Amp > Fawn (Filter)*FRFR system (Filter) > Ear.
Amp > Fawn (Filter)*1 > Ear.
Amp > Fawn (Filter)> Ear.

And you would be listening to a amp through a Fawn.
Now, since the Fawn is an IR, and there are thousands of IRs, substitute the Fawn for any other IR... you can pretty much get any cab u want.

I play different tube amps whenever I go to rehearsals or studios, and to me, using the AXE is like using just another tube amp with a cab. I don't spot any difference or feel like I lose anything by one day using the AXE or a tube amp. You could fool me if you cover my eyes, and bring me to a studio/rehearsal/whatever and there's an AXE cranked up right behind me. Imma just think oh it's another tube amp.

tl;dr the axe is awesome, buy 2.
 
naka2112 said:
Don't do it. I have an ecstasy, shiva and atma. You'll regret it. That amp, imo is the best amp ever made. Watch Steve Lukather's interview with Reinhold before you sell it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPa5swr610

If you sell it, you'll eventually buy it back again. You'll have seller's remorse big time :) I bought the atma for the reasons you outlined -much lighter, sounds similar and has three channels.

Not saying you shouldn't have an axe, just don't sell the real amp.
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Luk' could just as easily have done that vid replacing the Bog's with a smaller black box with a green screen and had the same sounds.
 
I played full range for a while, but switched to regular cabs because of the feel, control of feedback and the squeal with the tweeters on the full range system. For the rest, I don't miss tubes at all, I use mostly vintage tweeds and ac30 models, cranked up to the point where they would blow up with tubes.
At rehearsals and gigs, it sound and feels great with the cabs, in my living room I use it with stereo monitors and I can play quietly and still sound good

Jan
 
Roland Deschain said:
A couple of questions,
- With the FRFR setup I think I would get the Atomic CLR Powered Wedge, seems to be well reviewed and a popular choice, are there alternate speakers I should check out?
- Do I need 2 wedges?
- Assuming I go with the above mentioned FRFR setup, will I be able to get some good tones out of the box, or am I straight away into editing hell?
- Can I run the software through my Ipad?
-What is this 15 days you speak of?
Click to expand...

You can try others, but in the end they don't come close to the Atomic CLR. I bought mine without ever seeing or hearing one in person and am blown away by it.

2 Wedges would give you what I imagine is the holy-grail of sound and true stereo. I will have my 2nd wedge in the next month or so and can't wait (I don't play in a band any longer, but might have to with this setup).

You can get amazing tones right out the box, and using AxeEdit from your PC or Mac makes it really simple to tweak anything. There isn't an iPad app (yet?). You can also edit from the front panel, but I found that there's a bit of a learning process to that. The whole Axe-Fx has a learning curve, but there are awesome stock presets.

Find Cooper Carter's YouTube videos from G66 on how to setup tones; they will really help you understand how the Axe-Fx functions in relation to a traditional amp and how to use AxeEdit. He recently did 2, one for rhythm tone and one for lead, really insightful! All his videos are good, but these 2 were eye opening for me.

If you want to hear some amazing 80's rock/metal tones, search out Mark Day and Rocco Pezzin on YouTube.

There is a 15 day return period at Fractal Audio.
 
Lots of great suggestions posted here.... Based on the OP's comment about playing quietly in your room at night when everyone is asleep, the AXE is PERFECT for this....

In my personal experience, I've tried all sorts of configurations for the AXE (studio monitors, matrix SS amp into FRFR cabs, matrix amp into regular cabs, VHT power amps into real cabs, VHT power amps into FRFR cabs, Bogner Shiva power section into load box into RCF powered monitors, straight into RCF powered monitors). About the only thing I hadn't tried is the CLR stuff, or Mission stuff...

But for me the bottom line is this:

If you want to play in your bedroom, or any sort of studio like setting (recording, working out songs, jamming quietly, or playing in the "control room" while your amp is mic'ed in the other room), then you want the AXE. And to truly experience the AXE, you have to go FRFR. As noted above, I've tried a bunch of different set ups and the AXE excels when you are going FRFR.

If you want to play live in a band, and feel connected to your amplifier, feel like your amp is simply an extension of your guitar, have full dynamic response, then a real tube amp is the answer.

YMMV, but this is how it all came down for me. I still own both the AXE and real amps and I love playing both of them, I just play real amps when I'm playing "live" with a band.
 
Here's how I like to break it down to somebody trying to decide whether to go FRFR or Amp/Cab...

If you want your sound to be different heads into a single cabinet/speaker combination, go poweramp/cab
If you want a Fender Twin to sound like a Fender Twin, a Vox AC-30 to sound like a Vox AC-30, a Friedman to sound like a pissed off Marshall, all from the same audio source, then go FRFR.

I'm in the second group. At home I use small studio monitors and for gigs I run a Yamaha DXR-10 to monitor myself at fairly low volumes and run stereo FRFR to the PA. If you are in the first group and you are using, say a Marshall 1960B cab, The Fender Twin will sound like a Fender Twin running through a Marshall 1960B cab.
 
fwiw i gig mine a few nights a week (like many others here) and miss nothing tonally from a cab. i also have no issues with any kind of squeal or any problem getting controlled feedback. the ONLY thing a cab does that FRFR doesn't is fill the room like only a cab can, especially an open back cab. if you have to have that, then a cab is for you. if you are worried more about consistency and excellence of tone from stage to foh, then get CLR's and be giddy with your tone, period. there is absolutely nothing in regards to tone that the Axe + CLR doesn't deliver in spades. I've had almost every amp out there (fender, peavey, vox, marshall, budda, engineer, bogner, matchless, morgan, the list goes on) and i can tell you that my tone is better than its ever been. period. if you can accept the paradigm of hearing the mic'd tone all time instead of cab tone you'll be in heaven.
 
Roland Deschain said:
Just discovered that one of my favorite guitarists ty tabor is using an Axe setup into cabs.....interesting.
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Tabor rocks, one of my all time faves! Though he has an Axe and he does use the modeling portion in the studio for his solo stuff, live I'm pretty sure he uses an amp and cab and the Axe is used for effects. As of late seen here in this vid he has gone to a pedal board and playing through an Orange and Les Paul.

 
Thanks, for all the replies guys. I'm still very torn as to whether I'm going to hang onto my Bogner. While it's not practical for my situation, it sounds like a million bucks. I took a tour of all the music stores here in Vancouver and the common feedback I received from all the guys was to keep the bogner. Funny thing was all of the stores did not try to sell me any other modeller, ( Kempor/POD etc).

While the FX logically makes sense, I can't bring myself to buy one without trying it out, and hearing it in a live situation.

I'll keep you posted on the outcome!
 
I used to run a Mesa 50/50 power amp with my 'then' Digitech 2120, as it needed the valve power amp kick to make it sound 'real'. Remember, the 2120/2112 were from the late 90's and pre-modelling era.
Then when I got an Axe-Fx Standard when it came out, (swiftly followed by an Ultra) I realised I needed a more neutral power amp so I got a VHT 2/50/2. The Mesa just coloured the tone way too much.
Then I got The Axe II, and realised I didn't need a valve/tube power amp at all. So I got the Matrix, and that was the best descision I've made. The Axe II is so powerful, it just takes care of the whole thing for those of us who prefer a power amp and a real cab behind us in a live environment. Now I use the Full Range direct rout as well, to take full advantage. It's so great to have all these options.
 
I was that tube amp guy.(tube snob) When I first got the XL I was on the fence. Not that it wasn't incredible with all of the things that it can do, effects, amps, cabs, routing etc... but there was just something missing. With the updates to the firmware I fell over the fence on to the Axe-FX 2 XL and never looked back. It is hands down the answer for me and it just keeps getting better. The other guys already covered the other stuff.
 
Gamechanger said:
I was that tube amp guy.(tube snob) When I first got the XL I was on the fence. Not that it wasn't incredible with all of the things that it can do, effects, amps, cabs, routing etc... but there was just something missing. With the updates to the firmware I fell over the fence on to the Axe-FX 2 XL and never looked back. It is hands down the answer for me and it just keeps getting better. The other guys already covered the other stuff.
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Pretty much the same as my experience.
I tried loads of boutique amps before settling on a Bogner Shiva Anniversary w/KT88s in 2011. I got the Axe in early 2012 (FW v5 I think) and while I was excited by the possibilities I never felt it was able to replace the Shiva in a live setting.
I think it was about a year ago (FW v11-12) where in my opinion the Axe really started to close the gap in 'tube realism'. I started to use the Axe for more and more gigs, pairing it with a Matrix amp and NL212 cab was the last piece in the jigsaw.
Since about Oct 2013 my Shiva and Marshall 4x12 has been in storage and I've been using the Axe exclusively. Not going to get rid of the Shiva however.
 
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