The Ultra Sounds Too Good

steadystate

steadystate

Fractal Fanatic
I've been using the Ultra live for a couple of months now after rejoining the music scene (I used a Roland VG-88 before). Several of my friends and family members have commented that the guitar now has a clarity it previously lacked. Some in particular told me the Axe sounds so clear and distinct (even high-gain tones) that it now stands out from the rest of the band mix, perhaps too much. They say it sounds awesome and have no specific complaints (not too bright, not too thin, not too loud, can't find any fault, sounds just right), but they think it doesn't sit in the mix like my old rig did.

I've listened to the board mixes, stood in front of the PA, and hear the band through my IEMs. The Axe sounds so much better than the VG-88 (which they are used to hearing) that, while I disagree with their assessment, I can understand it. The other guitarists use Line 6 patches that sound like mushed-out oversaturated crap. The mic bleed from the drums is horrible. The rest of the mix sounds smeared compared to the Axe. So now we have an album-quality guitar tone on top of a so-so band mix.

So what to do? I ask them for suggestions and all they can say is something like "the rest of the mix needs to sound better so it can blend with the guitar". I say "Cliff rocks".
 
Good equipment always wins. Obviously the equipment of the other musicians can't compete with yours. But you have to accept that your tone is just part of the whole mix and it should sound like all belongs together. So maybe you should - although it might sound insane - think about crapping up your sound a little. It's still possible to create a crappy sound with the Axes.
Me for example, my sound isn't really as awesome as it can be, but it fits perfectly into the whole mix. On the low frequencies theres the bass guitar and the base drum, then going to higher frequencies there's my guitar creating the low end of the guitar sound. After me there's the other guitarist who plays a 5150, very smooth high-gain sound with a lot of brilliance and "singing" etc. My guitar sounds nice, has a lot of power, but if I was the only guitarist I'd say this sound lacks things like brilliance etc.

A guitarist (or in general: a member of a band) mustn't be selfish, you are part of a team, you can only win by being one unit.
 
:lol there is no team in a band. But there is, in fact, one I for I and that's all that matters :mrgreen
Especially with your tone and playing skillz
 
From what you have stated in other posts I think your golden. If your boss is happy with you then it might make the others pick up there game or you'll be playing with new guys soon.
 
Dont go back make them want to up there game with there equipment. Maybe if your lucky they will figure out a way to move up to an axe fx based system.
 
The obvious solution is to pick up an old POD2 and run your AxeFx through it (the tube preamp model would work) to FOH.
 
I think the cheapest solution would be to run the entire FOH mix through a fairly high end compressor. Something with vibe like, Tube Tech / CL 2A Dual Opto Compressor or Chandler Limited | Products: TG1 Compressor - or Smart Research.

Alternatively, try using high endish tube DI's for some of the other sources or an Aphex Aural Exciter judiciously to amp up some of the other sources.

For me, putting a "glue" compressor on the whole mix is the easiest to get everything to sit. Low fi and high fi together.

Richard
 
I hear the problem mostly as a clash between the POD tones and the Axe tones. Compare a few POD presets (they pretty much stick to presets) to user-tuned Axe patches designed for specific songs and the contrast becomes obvious. They don't really know how to program their units. If I wasn't the only one with a day job and a kid, I might spend some time trying to better match their tones to mine. Then again, I doubt that is even plausible considering the restrictions of the PODs.

The point of the tread is simply that I thought it was sort of funny that the Axe can make the rest of the guitars sound worse than they would on their own. I could have titled it "PODs Sound Awful", but I wanted to focus on the positives of the Axe, not my perceived shortcomings of the PODs (or at least the presets, which are *horrible*). Without the contrast, I think most people would have fewer complaints about the POD tones. Alongside the Axe, fogeddaboudit.
 
You could also alter the way you sit in the mix by employing some parallel compression. When done correctly it will maintain dynamics as desired, your basic tone will not be altered, it’s not nearly as finicky as 'regular' compression and you can do it with your Axe.

To do it set up a comp block that’s fed by the last block (maybe) and squish it severely. Monitor just the compressors' output and take all the dynamics off, just leaving the meat. Then mix that result under your regular patch. You have two major variables to mess with, the compression settings and the amount added in. Obviously, if you go too high on the percentage your dynamics will disappear. You’re looking for the sweet spot and its usually somewhere close to being able to hear an increase in volume. The 'body' of the tone will start to change long before that. That may be just what you need.

Compressor set up is everything here. Start out with a very fast attack, release to taste, peak detection and no make-up or look-ahead. Ratio would probably be less than 10-1 and threshold set so it’s always reducing gain. If you monitored the comp signal alone with a real meter it would show a quite stable output level. When set up right it won’t sound very good all by itself.

You can go farther with this too. The release time can be dialed in to make it pump in time with a specific song as well. The whole idea is to get a subtle, yet fire-breathing monster tucked under your basic patch. Adding a PEQ immediately after the compressor adds another realm of control over body, cut, width, presence - all that stuff. Adding a bunch of compressed bottom like this may help you 'sink' into the band without stepping on the bass and kick too.

If you were to re-amp a track and tweak away at this without having to play your guitar at the same time you would get there a whole lot sooner. :D
 
2x I've heard really great players use PODs onstage and it was amazing how bad it was. 1st time was Paul Black who is one of the greatest slide players ever (he's from Madison WI). Last I heard he was in the midst of personal meltdown and not playing which is a tragedy as he is one of the greatest blues/slide players I've ever heard (played with Sonny Landreth early in their careers and I'm sure they learned a ton from one another) with an amazing huge and alive sound. He had a POD 2 at a gig for the first set and it was just horrible, a mockery of the normally amazing tone he has. Fortunately, he figured out how crappy it sounded live and took it out of his signal chain the rest of the night. Another time was hearing Neal Alger, a fantastic Chicago jazz player, playing with Patricia Barber, another great jazz musician. The previous time I'd heard them, he was using a tube amp and pedals and sounded fantastic, conjuring up a variety of great sounds influenced by John Scofield and Bill Frisell among others. Then I heard him use a POD 2 live. It was awful. No matter how great the lines he played or how cool his chordal choices were, they sounded horrible and completely disengaging.

I had the same experience at a couple of small gigs where I tried modelers before the Axe. Seemed maybe ok at home. Got it into the world and the sounds seemed puny and fake.

I've had lots of modelers before the Axe FX Ultra and II and to varying degrees could create some sounds in the studio that I could live with and/or find useful. Live, it wasn't until the Axe that I could be happy with a "modeler's" live sound. I say make them catch up to you. If you were using any decent kind of amp, you'd be making the POD sound bad, too.

In the "not nearly an Axe, but better than a POD" category, I think the Tech21 stuff generally sounds way better than PODs for basic tones. I'd take one of those and some pedals over a Line6 set up any day.
 
I think what I'm going to have to do is set aside some time to coax better tone out of the PODs. I've read the manuals. There isn't much to adjust as far as raw amp tones and eq. I should know fairly quickly what I'm up against.
 
I've owned several models of the Pod from the first red "bean" to the XT Live. I still have the XT Live and am having to use while waiting for the II (sold my Ultra).

My advice would be: dial the compression waaaaaaaaaaay back, put the tube screamer on every patch, use the post EQ, and if you can buy and load the amp extension packs.

Even with all that, I groan now when I have to use it, missin my Fractal bad!!!

Richard
 
steadystate said:
That's what they use, the XT Live.
Click to expand...

My biggest complaint with the XT is, it is bloody murder to get a patch to cut a live mix.

The first thing I would try would be adding the Tube Screamer, even on clean patches, and messing with the Tone parameter. That effect seems to get enough bite to let the patches cut a mix.

Richard
 
My buddy has the Line 6 Spider Valve MKII.
Sounds fantastic!
I "used" to think that was the best all around amp,effects,combo,etc
Until I plugged my Ultra into a VHT Special 6 Ultra combo, no comparison....
Encourage the other guitarists to tweak their tones, most guys have no idea what they are doing with programmable amps,effects.
Setup a rehersal to just tweak all your rigs to blend nice together.
3 cents
 
DonPetersen said:
they? you mean there's more than one? on bass, too?

good god.
Click to expand...
Two other guys (singer and keyboard) play secondary guitars. Each uses an XT. If they have nothing to do in a particular song, they will double my part, even if no second guitar exists on the original recording (makes early Van Halen sound ridiculous IMO). It gets worse. They want to double my acoustic tone in Dust In the Wind with a sampled guitar played by a midi track. Does anyone have any hemlock?
 
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