Sitting in the mix with a keyboard player

martijne

martijne

Inspired
Hello dear FAS friends,

I was looking for some general ideas / directions to make my guitar sit in the mix. We are a five piece band with a not-too-loud drummer (lucky us!) a bass player who mostly uses a pick for a bright and snappy attack, some occasional chorus and OD, a keyboard player and a new baritone/bass singer We do new wave covers like Simple Minds, Joy Division Cure, The Sound, Killing Joke, Stranglers etc. I navigate between big clean fendery amps, chimy class-a and rock crunchy marshall varieties.Chorus and delay galore, that goes without saying i suppose..

As the keyboard also takes up significant midrange, I’m looking to position the guitar in the mix. Should i focus on adding upper mids? Enable the bright and cut switches in the amp block?

I’m aware that this is not a really specific question, but I’d love to hear any ideas you’d toss up!
 
Look at the graphic in Describing Sound in the Wiki.

The guitar’s frequency range is in the middle of the piano’s range. You can, and a lot of people do, filter the signal in the Cab block to do a 12 dB cut at either end of the guitar’s range.

That said, if you look at the frequency chart for guitar speakers, the majority drop at about 100 and 5K so leaving the cab at its default will not make a lot of difference since the IR is already filtering it. From experimenting with the cab block, there’s very little difference if I set filters or remain at the defaults.

Low Cut, High Cut, Filter Slope in the Wiki is a good reference.
 
Thank you Greg,

So it is more about cutting where the keyboard player is than adding where he isn't? I understood from this forum that the brightness of Brit 800's is important for cutting through, that was why i was looking at the bright switch etc.
 
A speaker IR 'on the bright side of life' does help : EV12's, G12Hxx..are my friends for a coverband with a keyboard player I play in. Maybe V30's also, though personally I like them less they are very performant in the higher frequencies.
Best is to test with your band as at home alone at volume you might feel your sound is a bit shrill while with the band it can be outstanding. Check a video on YouTube concerning Edge's rig rundown. The guitar alone sounds very nasal while in a bad context it stands out very full.
 
In my experience, modern keyboards have such a hugely broad frequency spectrum that they clobber the sonic space of everyone else, bass player included. Worse yet, the presets that the average keyboardist will prefer sound absolutely phenomenal on their own, filling the whole space (because it sells equipment)... but make it extremely difficult to fit anyone else in.

Or maybe I've just been unlucky that way and only dealt with keyboard divas who own outlandish gear.
 
Is this for live use or for recording? If live, perhaps sit down and have a band meeting, and work out who is supposed to occupy which sonic territory... ask your sound guy (or gal!), and do desk tapes. If everyone is prepared to "live for the songs" and for the performance (rather than their egos), the band will sound much better for it. Plus the audience and the critics will remember how great the band sounded...

I've done thousands of shows (and a bit less recording), and the use case scenarios are completely different for both. With a recording you can capture "full range", and then EQ, pan, reverberate to fill each sonic hole with your instruments - front, back, left, right. Live, that is either your sound tech's job, or y'all have to do it!

Take advantage of the FM3's large catalogue of presets ... create your killer sound, but then perhaps create a copy with the bottom end low passed, the mid high mids boosted, and the ultra highs trimmed ... see how this places you in the mix, and enjoy how great the band sounds ...

Hope this helps. 😁

Doogz
 
I feel like you and the keyboard can live in the same sonic space with some intentional mix decisions.

I would use a stereo mix with only the kick, snare, bass, and lead vocal panned center.
Everything else gets panned relative to the players position on stage.

Personally I like to cut guitar and keys just a little bit at (or around) 2k to carve out a place for the lead vocal. If everything is fighting for the center of the mix and at 1-2k it makes for really bad ear fatigue for the audience after the first set.

If you and the keyboard player work together programming song specific patches, the end result will be much better, even its just from the collaboration and consciously making room for each other.
 
I'd concentrate more on arrangements and less on tones. Sit down with the keys person, just the two of you, and maybe the bass player, and suss out how your parts work together.

I used to mix a band where they did that, and it made a huge difference. It wasn't that the tones were clearer, the band was.

I bet if you listen in detail to the parts on great records, you'll hear that.
 
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Dave Merrill said:
I'd concentrate more on arrangements and less on tones. Sit down with the keys person, just the two of you, and maybe the bass player, and suss out how your parts work together.

I used to mix a band where they did that, and it made a huge difference. It wasn't that the tones were clearer, the band was.
Click to expand...
+1 on this advice here.

My first thought was "voicings" - move your parts around the neck to open up more of the tonal space.

In addition, I'd work with time / space and make your parts contrast the keys.

As above, if you can sit with the keyboard player and work on parts, that is ideal. If not, listen to them and try to build contrast in your parts. If they are holding long chords, make your part more percussive and vice-versa.
 
Thanks a million to all of you guys!

We’re mainly rehearsing for live shows and the keyboard player is not the most diva princess type (just a bit). I’ll check all your tone tips and yes, arranging also plays a big part.

is this the video @lauke-lux ?
 
I've struggled with this a lot. As someone else pointed out, arrangement is probably the most important thing (I rarely play chords larger than 2-3 notes). However, I played a bit with blocking fairly aggressively below 100 and above 5-7K. Another trick you might want to play around with is the the trick of adding 2-3dB boost at 1K in the amp block input EQ. I can't remember who's trick this was (maybe Cooper Carter), but it does a nice job from my perception of letting my guitar pop through without stepping on the dominant frequencies of the keyboard.
 
IME, the trick here is less about EQ and more about arrangement. If you're playing covers, then that's probably taken care of by the parts and the original mix (guitars are typical way, way further back in the mix than we realize). If originals or more improvisational stuff, you and the keyboard player need to make an effort to get out of each other's way (the old less is more thing).
 
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With a little attentiveness, guitar and keys live together pretty easily. If you listen to the songs you’re covering, the best clues for parts and inversions are often right there! A good arranger or producer will steer parts apart or together for different purposes. You’ll often hear these on the record.

As others note, a guitar sits in the middle, and has about half the pitches available as a 88 key piano. So there is plenty of real estate to get out of one another’s lane when you need to even the tone, and a lot to dive on together for section emphasis. And don’t forget, for either player, that not playing at all is always a potentially tasty option.

Having keys is a major boon to any band, in my opinion.
 
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