Rotary block dilemma: stereo image vs tone/texture

[Ant Music]

Ok I’ve been toying around a bit more with the Rotary block and tried out a couple of different people patches from axechange to see how I can improve my Rotary tone.
I had a bit of a break through when I noticed that the mix dial is actually where I found what I was looking for. Normally, I automatically turn the mix parameter up full so as to get the most authentic rotary sound (not wanting to dilute it with dry signal) and the most pronounced stereo effect.

I noticed that when I returned the mix dial to 50% the character I’d been missing was there. It seems like the mix parameter behaves similar to that of a phaser or chorus pedal, in that if you max it out you don’t get the full interaction between the wet and dry signals (50/50 gives the most pronounced effect)


So I’m really enjoying the sound and texture of it but now I feel like I’m not getting the full stereo separation I’m after having reintroduced the dry signal into it, even with the stereo image parameter up full. What do you guys make of this? I’m happy with the tone/texture but now I feel like it’s at the sacrifice of the stereo image separation.

Am I right about the behaviour of the mix parameter? How do you guys approach this?

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Ok I’ve been toying around a bit more with the Rotary block and tried out a couple of different people patches from axechange to see how I can improve my Rotary tone.
I had a bit of a break through when I noticed that the mix dial is actually where I found what I was looking for. Normally, I automatically turn the mix parameter up full so as to get the most authentic rotary sound (not wanting to dilute it with dry signal) and the most pronounced stereo effect.

I noticed that when I returned the mix dial to 50% the character I’d been missing was there. It seems like the mix parameter behaves similar to that of a phaser or chorus pedal, in that if you max it out you don’t get the full interaction between the wet and dry signals (50/50 gives the most pronounced effect)


So I’m really enjoying the sound and texture of it but now I feel like I’m not getting the full stereo separation I’m after having reintroduced the dry signal into it, even with the stereo image parameter up full. What do you guys make of this? I’m happy with the tone/texture but now I feel like it’s at the sacrifice of the stereo image separation.

Am I right about the behaviour of the mix parameter? How do you guys approach this?

I have played with mixing some dry back in, and the happy place I landed was with the mix at 86%. Getting into the other, more esoteric parameters and tweaking them a little helped, too....

 

[Ant Music]

I have played with mixing some dry back in, and the happy place I landed was with the mix at 86%. Getting into the other, more esoteric parameters and tweaking them a little helped, too....

Thanks for the response. I’ok definitely try that out. Would love to hear what others think.

 

[yek]

The Rotary defaults to Mix at 50% for a reason.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Also, you can increase the width of the effect. Mix spacing and stereo spread can be used to get a wider effect. Useful to get more of an stereo effect when mixing in dry signal, or just in general.

 

[unix-guy]

I checked and found I have mine set at 65%...

 

[unix-guy]

Also, you can increase the width of the effect. Mix spacing and stereo spread can be used to get a wider effect. Useful to get more of an stereo effect when mixing in dry signal, or just in general.

Yes, the Stereo Spread can go up to 200%.

 

[Ant Music]

Thanks for the tips fellas.

 

[artzeal]

Rotary is a 3D spacial experience (which is why they sound so great in a small club). The sound is the combination of all the changes in room reflections with the direct bounce from wherever the rotating speaker and horn are sweeping at the particular moment. Only a surround sound model of a Rotary cabinet into a surround system would be reasonably authentic. I find the FAS Rotary joyfully versatile and a stereo emulation is all I want to deal with anyway.

So, the Fractal model at it's 50% mix is a good default. A carefully tuned (high and lowpass to taste, plus appropriate pre-delay) room reverb after the Rotary gives a more authentic sound to my ears (if you want authentic). Sometimes I dial in the Rotary with a Hammond B3 model (for it's fuller spectrum sound), and when that's grooving, then switch to a guitar.

For more flexibility, split the amp/cab signal - send it to Rotary: up to a 100% mix, and combine that with a send to a delay or whatever for whatever treatment you envision for the direct sound, and wiggle the knobs until you like it. Put an LFO on the rate for some drift if you want. Use a compressor (parallel - 50% mix for punch and transparency, & with a fast release) to exaggerate the throbbing effect when that suits.

Take it the extra mile, and you'll find there's a mile after that.

 

[sprint]

I like my rotary running @ 100% mix + parallel to amp/cab then mixed back in at the end before
reverb (gets closest to Frampton tone to my ear).

I recently hung a 2nd set of monitors off my interface - adding the rotary to the 2nd set
of monitors with a reversed stereo field really gets that swirling effect.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I like my rotary running @ 100% mix + parallel to amp/cab then mixed back in at the end before
reverb (gets closest to Frampton tone to my ear).

Might have to try that config....

I recently hung a 2nd set of monitors off my interface - adding the rotary to the 2nd set
of monitors with a reversed stereo field really gets that swirling effect.

I wanted to do something similar with the PA for my old band back in the '90s to get a "poor-man's quad" setup going.

The resulting R-L in front and L-R in back makes an "X" pattern, which should help make things panning from one side to the other generate a bit of swirl.

I also tried building a homemade version of the Fender/Groovetoobs stereo add-on cab that is the precursor to the SpaceStation and SpaceStation XL (which I own) stereo-from-a-single-point setups. Didn't have much luck, but didn't have a lot of time/budget to experiment with it either. Likely there's a bit more than just L+R front and L-R sides going on in the box....

 

[sprint]

The resulting R-L in front and L-R in back makes an "X" pattern, which should help make things panning from one side to the other generate a bit of swirl.

Yes, put yourself right in the middle to get the full swirling effect. I find feeding the rotary block with it's own signal not from the amp/cab block, and mixing back in post cab, lets it retain more rotary character + rather than give rotary it's own cab, I just put a peq after it for a bit of shaping (mid bump). The rotary's drive is improved since last release - I crank it with more driven main line tones to get that Framptonlike driven rotary vibe - nice in stereo and really nice quad.

Been really enjoying Apple Music's spatial audio with a 4 monitors config. Some songs are mixed well in this format, some not so much. A few tracks I like that seem tastefully done are: REM/Drive, Stones/Doo Doo ... Heartbreaker, Prince/When Doves Cry. The full Abbey Road album is available in Dolby Atmos with classic bits of Beatles rotary usage here and there mixed in surround. All this would likely sound just as good on high endy stereo gear, but, for the poor man, Yamahas and KRKs in quad + sub sure sounds nifty!

 

[Repartee41]

Reading through this thread and a lot of recent threads about the rotary I'm really going to have to consider diving deeper into it! It's been my go-to clean effect for a while, but there's so much more it can do than I thought.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I like my rotary running @ 100% mix + parallel to amp/cab then mixed back in at the end before
reverb (gets closest to Frampton tone to my ear).

Gave this a try earlier tonight. It definitely improves the stereo-ness of the swirl, bit I ended up needing to put a PEQ with the hi-cut set somewhere in the 5-7kHz area at 36dB/8va to cut off the amp's top end before feeding the Rotary, or it was too "scritchy". Shoulda broke out the 245 and rolled through a few Frampton licks with it, but it was definitely up that road once I chopped a bit off the top.

IIRC, the Leslie speakers take speaker-level output from the organ, dummy load it with a resistor, and pad it down to the proper level to feed the input circuitry. I wonder if it would sound more realistic with a resistive speaker load on the amp feeding the Rotary, though then you're running a second amp - one with a regular speaker impedance curve to feed the regular cab, and one with the resistive load to feed the Rotary. Rumor has it he had an Ampeg ET-1 Echo Twin hiding behind the Marshalls that was patched into the sound somewhere....

 

[Ant Music]

Rotary is a 3D spacial experience (which is why they sound so great in a small club). The sound is the combination of all the changes in room reflections with the direct bounce from wherever the rotating speaker and horn are sweeping at the particular moment. Only a surround sound model of a Rotary cabinet into a surround system would be reasonably authentic. I find the FAS Rotary joyfully versatile and a stereo emulation is all I want to deal with anyway.

So, the Fractal model at it's 50% mix is a good default. A carefully tuned (high and lowpass to taste, plus appropriate pre-delay) room reverb after the Rotary gives a more authentic sound to my ears (if you want authentic). Sometimes I dial in the Rotary with a Hammond B3 model (for it's fuller spectrum sound), and when that's grooving, then switch to a guitar.

For more flexibility, split the amp/cab signal - send it to Rotary: up to a 100% mix, and combine that with a send to a delay or whatever for whatever treatment you envision for the direct sound, and wiggle the knobs until you like it. Put an LFO on the rate for some drift if you want. Use a compressor (parallel - 50% mix for punch and transparency, & with a fast release) to exaggerate the throbbing effect when that suits.

Take it the extra mile, and you'll find there's a mile after that.

View attachment 85665

I like my rotary running @ 100% mix + parallel to amp/cab then mixed back in at the end before
reverb (gets closest to Frampton tone to my ear).

I recently hung a 2nd set of monitors off my interface - adding the rotary to the 2nd set
of monitors with a reversed stereo field really gets that swirling effect.

I'd love to hear some recordings if you guys are able to whip something together.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with my Axe Fx 2 so I didn't the the updated drive parameter in the rotary. It is 100% useless in the Axe Fx 2. It does nothing until 90% and then it just sounds shit. Don't know how they buggered that up or never updated it...... :/

 

[sprint]

I'd love to hear some recordings if you guys are able to whip something together.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with my Axe Fx 2 so I didn't the the updated drive parameter in the rotary. It is 100% useless in the Axe Fx 2. It does nothing until 90% and then it just sounds shit. Don't know how they buggered that up or never updated it...... :/

I didn't feel like the rotary drive update was a huge leap - better but not a big change - not sure it's supposed to be like amp drive/distortions - for my presets it works fine to dirty up the rotary tone enough to mix in well with overall distorted tones. Below is how I've been approaching rotary - I'll probably find a different approach next week lol!, but right now, I'm into letting the rotary block have it's own path till end of chain and setting the rotary's drive high with driven tones. Attached are 2 presets (one Axe2, one Axe3) with 4 scenes: 1-Clean Fast Rotary, 2-Clean Slow Rotary, 3-Edge Fast Rotary, 4-Lead Fast Rotary - sounds really good to me on Axe 2 or 3 with a Gibson SG.

 

[∞Fractals]

I'd love to hear some recordings if you guys are able to whip something together.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with my Axe Fx 2 so I didn't the the updated drive parameter in the rotary. It is 100% useless in the Axe Fx 2. It does nothing until 90% and then it just sounds shit. Don't know how they buggered that up or never updated it...... :/

What are you talking about? They delivered a new product with an updated rotary effect. Isn’t that what any company would do? (Well, probably not Roland and a whole bunch more I can think of…)

If you want to upgrade effect, buy the upgrade and support the work that went into the upgrade!

 

[Ant Music]

What are you talking about? They delivered a new product with an updated rotary effect. Isn’t that what any company would do? (Well, probably not Roland and a whole bunch more I can think of…)

If you want to upgrade effect, buy the upgrade and support the work that went into the upgrade!

When I say I'm surprised the Drive paramter never got updated, I'm referring to the Axe FX 2 firmware when the Rotary got a much needed upgrade. The drive parameter was as useless after the update as it was before the update. I'm still using my Axe Fx 2 for many years because I can't afford the $4K cost for an Axe Fx 3 in Australia. Just can't justify that cost when overall they don't sound all that much different. The main thing I would get from upgrading is better CPU headroom, better user interface and more routing options. Aside from that I don't expect my tones to be dramatically better and I'm perfectly happy with my tones already except I do wish the drive parameter was usable and that the Rotary block should contain some rotary cabinet IRs.

 

[sprint]

The drive parameter was as useless after the update as it was before the update.

I do wish the drive parameter was usable

You say this as if it's an indisputable fact - it's not imo - the rotary drive works fine in Axe2 - a bit better on the 3 but fine on the 2. As I mentioned above, I don't think it's designed to be used like a distortion pedal if that's what u expect - did u try the preset I posted above?

Rotary block should contain some rotary cabinet IRs

Not sure this makes sense since it's entirely possible the rotary block already acts like a complete leslie (amp/speaker/baffle/horn/rotor/cab). Everyone seems to want to run rotary into or fed from the same amp/cab their main gutar tone comes from - If you like the sound of it that way, great, but wrt authenticity in routing of it (and I'm suggesting tone as well) from what info I've been able to gather as someone whose never used a real leslie irl but spent some time to get my head around it, well known guitar tones with rotary (Frampton) seem to be running the leslie in parallel to their main guitar amp/cab - not through it or having the leslie somehow taking a a feed off the guitar amp. It's its own thing running completely separately in parallel, with a feed from pre amp/cab and mixed in at end of chain. Try it that way in Axefx.

There must be an older fart like me around here who had close up experience with how real leslies were routed back in their hayday and could confirm best practice to replicate in Axefx. To my ears, paralel rotary routing nails it in Axe2 or 3

 

[trancegodz]

I've used real Leslies for guitar in the early 70's. They were not stock. They were modified with EV's in them and I drove them with a Hiwatt 100. I had a custom splitter box made so I could just use my regular guitar amps, or kick in the additional Leslies when I wanted. No effects were routed though the Leslie. The effects were through the guitar amps only. So Leslie on the left, and guitar amps with effects on the right, sitting side by side each other. Everything was in mono unless I switched on the Leslie which gave a stereo effect with Leslie on the left and guitar amps on the right.

The Leslies in the Axe FXII sound just fine to me, as does the Leslie in the Axe FXIII, and I'm totally happy with them.