Real tube power amp + direct/FOH - routing?

nater

nater

Experienced
A quick summary of my journey with the AXE....

2 years ago, acquired AXE II and paired it with my VHT 2502 Power amp (firmware 4 maybe?). Couldn't really get the warmth I was used to, and decided to embrace FRFR. Been happily going direct since (mostly RCF monitors and/or whatever monitors the soundguy is using). Also, I wanted to utilize all the poweramp modeling and cab modeling so I could dial in the perfect AC30 sound, or the perfect Marshall stack. However, I still struggled with missing that "amp in room" sound when jamming/rehearsal etc. So, I acquired a Matrix GT1000 for use with my guitar cabs (2x12 Scumbacks, 1x12 V30's). It's closer to the amp in the room sound, but still not 100% satisfying for that warm tube tone I was used to prior to the AXE. BUT, in a nutshell, still some of the best and most versatile tones I've ever had.

This weekend, I realized, I've never tried my AXE through the effects loop of my Bogner Shiva (el34's). I simply set up a patch with a couple amp sims (some Fenders, an HBE, a Bogner Red), power amp modeling off (SAG to 0), into the loop return on my Shiva and into my 2x12. HOLY SHNIKES!!! There it is, all the warmth and punch, and dynamics, with very very little tweaking at all, and best of all "amp in the room". I tried some SRV licks with my strat, bam! Some classic rock with my Les Paul! Bam. Some old skool Metallica riffs, Bam! Damn, it sounded good. I was thinking back 2 years ago, why didn't my VHT2502 sound this good?? Maybe it's just me?? Maybe it's just the fickle nature of tone seekers constantly fiddling with our tones.

Sorry for the history, but here's the purpose of my post....

Instead of trying to nail every amp/poweramp/cab combination for my coverband songs (mainstream/classic/pop rock stuff), I'm looking to simplify and get a few great amp tones. I will still need the functionality of the AXE and all effects and scenes etc. but, here's my thought on routing... Because I still want to send a direct signal to FOH for gigs.

Guitar > AXE front panel Input > (patch contains compressor, drives, preamps (AMP blocks w/P.A. off), effects > FXL block via Output 2) > Bogner Shiva loop return > Speaker output into load box > one signal into guitar cabinet, and the line-out signal from load box back into AXE Input 2 (returning a line level signal into the AXE via the FXL block) > CAB block > Output 1 > Direct to FOH.

This will allow me to get my backline/amp in the room sound for gigs/practice etc., but still use the Axe CAB modeling for FOH. The only downside to my direct signal will be the power amp modeling will only be a line level signal of my Bogner's el34's. But, based on what I heard this weekend, I think I'm okay giving up some of the amp versatility for more consistency and the power amp punch of real tubes.

Has anyone tried this set up? Any pitfalls I should be aware of? Am I crazy?

Also, when disabling the PA sims in the AMP block, does this render a lot of the parameters useless? I noticed the Master Volume still had impact to the signal, but I couldn't tell if it was just making it louder, or if it was shaping the tone....

sorry for the long post, but I'm more excited about what I heard this weekend, than I have been in a while... (thanks to Cliff, the bar is getting set higher and higher...)
 
I've had a very similar experience. I was using my Axe2 with a matrix gt800fx pushing a mesa dual rec 4x12 with v30's. Sounded good - Really good. Just was missing a tiny bit of sparkle and punch (which only I was not hearing but resulted in endless tweaking).

Now I use my axe2 into the fx loop of my Peavey 5150 II head. It's all there. Sparkle, punch, sizzle, volume, harmonics, all of my tube amp that I missed is there PLUS I get my wicked tone from my Axe2. Match made in heaven. I'm excited to see what FW14 has to offer with it's Brootalz amp model. I've switched up from the 6160 Block to the FAS modern 2. I have a gig on friday, so we'll see how it all works live.

I've never used direct FOH, So the better the tone from the cab, the better it will be through the PA. Let me know how your set up works though as I was curious of how to utilize FOH with Power amp sims off AND cab sims off.
 
Jeffguy said:
I've had a very similar experience. I was using my Axe2 with a matrix gt800fx pushing a mesa dual rec 4x12 with v30's. Sounded good - Really good. Just was missing a tiny bit of sparkle and punch (which only I was not hearing but resulted in endless tweaking).

Now I use my axe2 into the fx loop of my Peavey 5150 II head. It's all there. Sparkle, punch, sizzle, volume, harmonics, all of my tube amp that I missed is there PLUS I get my wicked tone from my Axe2. Match made in heaven. I'm excited to see what FW14 has to offer with it's Brootalz amp model. I've switched up from the 6160 Block to the FAS modern 2. I have a gig on friday, so we'll see how it all works live.

I've never used direct FOH, So the better the tone from the cab, the better it will be through the PA. Let me know how your set up works though as I was curious of how to utilize FOH with Power amp sims off AND cab sims off.
Click to expand...

Curious if you are using the 4 cable method or just running thru the loop of the 5150 for effects only?
 
Hi Nate, I dont bother with the power soak although I have tried with my hot plate. I just run the basic one signal to PA and one straight into the the VHT ala

AXE-route.jpg
 
nater said:
Also, when disabling the PA sims in the AMP block, does this render a lot of the parameters useless? I noticed the Master Volume still had impact to the signal, but I couldn't tell if it was just making it louder, or if it was shaping the tone....
Click to expand...

Some parameters change, like Presence and Depth.
Master turns into a simple level control.
Some amp models don't work well with disabled power amp simulation. These are the models which rely on power amps, such as Trainwreck and other non-MV models.
 
yek said:
Some parameters change, like Presence and Depth.
Master turns into a simple level control.
Some amp models don't work well with disabled power amp simulation. These are the models which rely on power amps, such as Trainwreck and other non-MV models.
Click to expand...

Right, those types of amps (I'm not too technical, but the single ended amps? The ones that rely heavily on their power section to provide their character?) - those will suffer a bit by defeating their power section and then running it through an el34 Shiva power section (or any other tube power amp for that matter). I'm still in my experimentation mode and haven't fully tested my patches/tones etc. but my first impression was that the tube section of my Shiva just had a more pleasing/responsive/feedback than my Matrix.

FRFR is a completely different animal, so I'm not trying to get into that conversation. I still feel running all modeling into the direct/FOH/desk etc. is what the AXE excels at. If I could use more CPU in a preset, I would just create multiple signals, one for FOH, and one for my power amp/cab signal. So, this is why I'm envisioning running my signal into my Shiva for poweramp, then back into the AXE for FOH.

I'm just curious if anyone has set up their rig similar to this and if they ran into any issues.
 
Finnster said:
Curious if you are using the 4 cable method or just running thru the loop of the 5150 for effects only?
Click to expand...

I'm not using the 4 cable method. I just plugged it into the FX return of my 5150 II as per the manual. Basically the Axe now works as the 5150 II's pre-amp section. All of my patches work just as they did with the Matrix gt800fx. Basically no changes had to be done other than turning off Power Amp Modelling. I can still switch channels on my 5150ii, but it has no effect as the pre-amp is bypassed. The input volume on the Axefx is now my the master volume for the whole rig. I still use MIDI to switch patches on my Axe. I also only plug into the AxeFx, Not into the guitar input of the 5150ii.

Sounds F'n Magical.
 
I plan on doing the same with my Mesa head when I get my axe fx. But after reading this I think I'll give my 6505+ head a try too! Very encouraging to read Jeff.
Jeffguy said:
I'm not using the 4 cable method. I just plugged it into the FX return of my 5150 II as per the manual. Basically the Axe now works as the 5150 II's pre-amp section. All of my patches work just as they did with the Matrix gt800fx. Basically no changes had to be done other than turning off Power Amp Modelling. I can still switch channels on my 5150ii, but it has no effect as the pre-amp is bypassed. The input volume on the Axefx is now my the master volume for the whole rig. I still use MIDI to switch patches on my Axe. I also only plug into the AxeFx, Not into the guitar input of the 5150ii.

Sounds F'n Magical.
Click to expand...
 
nater said:
Right, those types of amps (I'm not too technical, but the single ended amps? The ones that rely heavily on their power section to provide their character?) - those will suffer a bit by defeating their power section and then running it through an el34 Shiva power section (or any other tube power amp for that matter). I'm still in my experimentation mode and haven't fully tested my patches/tones etc. but my first impression was that the tube section of my Shiva just had a more pleasing/responsive/feedback than my Matrix.

FRFR is a completely different animal, so I'm not trying to get into that conversation. I still feel running all modeling into the direct/FOH/desk etc. is what the AXE excels at. If I could use more CPU in a preset, I would just create multiple signals, one for FOH, and one for my power amp/cab signal. So, this is why I'm envisioning running my signal into my Shiva for poweramp, then back into the AXE for FOH.

I'm just curious if anyone has set up their rig similar to this and if they ran into any issues.
Click to expand...

I keep seeing this idea perpetuated , that some amps cant be used with a tube poweramp because of PA distortion. This is simple gainstaging.

If you use a tube poweramp with the axe, which you are when going for tones with higher amounts of PA distortion you turn down the master on the tube amp and crank the output 1 knob, if more breakup is desired use the levek in the amp block but be careful for output clipping.

Just influence your real poweramp to clip, that is it.
 
Moltenmetalburn said:
I keep seeing this idea perpetuated , that some amps cant be used with a tube poweramp because of PA distortion. This is simple gainstaging.

If you use a tube poweramp with the axe, which you are when going for tones with higher amounts of PA distortion you turn down the master on the tube amp and crank the output 1 knob, if more breakup is desired use the levek in the amp block but be careful for output clipping.

Just influence your real poweramp to clip, that is it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I see what you're saying but that's not my point here. Actually, I run the AXE Output 1 at full volume when using my poweramp. What gooses the power amp is the gain staging done within the amp/drive blocks. As I understand Output 1 at full output is simply unity gain.

But my point here is this... I'm under the impression that disabling poweramps in the AXE makes more sense when running a real tube power amp. However, after more experimentation last night, I'm rethinking this a bit. Yes, for some amps, it makes more sense to disable the poweramp sim and allow the real tube power amp to provide the additional character. But, for amps that use a different type of power section, when you disable their poweramp sim, they sound like a basic clean amp. I noticed this with a Morgan AC-20. Without the poweramp sim, I could hardly get any breakup.

If anything, it's an interesting experiment.

Bottom line, the feel of the tube power amp to me is much better than a SS amp when using real guitar cabs. I think I can still use the Poweramp sims on some amps, but not all amps. This is where I can see a delimma.... The only reason to route my post Shiva Power amp line level signal back into the AXE for FOH, is because I was assuming I would need all poweramps disabled, therefore I would need the Shiva signal to complete my chain. But, I think I can manage this on a patch-by-patch basis. Some patches will not return the Shiva signal because I will leave poweramp sims on. And other patches will return the Shiva signal, since the poweramp sims will be off.

Sounds like I'm the only one trying to return a line level signal, post tube power amp, into the AXE. I haven't tried it yet because I have to get my ohms set correctly for my amp/hotplate etc. Maybe I will find it's an exercise in futility, but that's why I started this thread, for input.
 
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